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McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora projectMcGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora projectPosted Oct 3, 2010 23:45 UTC (Sun) by jcm (subscriber, #18262)Parent article: McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project
I strongly disagree that the future is some fluffy web-app dross. No offence to Mike, but what Fedora needs are good distribution cohesion, very aggressive policy toward updates that harm user experience, and a solid server-friendly workstation-leaning Linux distribution. Otherwise, it just sounds like the fear of a need to be more Apple-like is being replaced with a fear of not being enough HTML5.
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McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project Posted Oct 4, 2010 1:24 UTC (Mon) by mmcgrath (subscriber, #44906) [Link]
You think people would prefer not to be able to access their content from everywhere via the same application no matter what platform / hardware they happen to be on? That sort of functionality / technology just doesn't interest people?
Side note, these aren't fluffy apps. HTML5 can flat out do several things that current HTML can't do. Fluffy's got nothing to do with it. Its the difference between only being able to use ints, vs also having floats and strings.
McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project Posted Oct 4, 2010 4:55 UTC (Mon) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
I think even Apple learned the hard way that people don't want just HTML (even full HTML5, AJAX, whatever) apps, and that connectivity is not so reliable that everything can live online in some cloud forevermore. There will always be a need for locally running applications, and I will always want to have things like a local mail client from which I can read email without an internet connection. Yes, web apps are great, but they are never going to fully replace running real applications on the local system.
As to fluffy. Yea. I just bought a new netbook and I'm seriously considering finally ditching GNOME while I'm at it. It's not just web stuff that I think of as "fluffy". I probably won't ditch GNOME as it's so ingrained in Fedora and I want to keep up with what's going on, but there's a strong part of me that wants to go back to the days of enlightenment 0.17, complete with esd. All of this talk of being a window onto the web is something I generally look on as fantastic BS that won't ever really work until we have internet links that don't rely on physical cables, wireless networks, or other real world non-cloudy buzzwords to actually make them work and remain reliable.
Jon.
McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project Posted Oct 4, 2010 6:04 UTC (Mon) by ajf (subscriber, #10844) [Link]
One thing we really ought to learn from the success of the iPhone and (to a lesser extent) Android is that there's more to the web than the web browser. You just don't have to sacrifice the unquestionable superiority of native applications to "be able to access [your] content from everywhere".
As for ints, floats and strings, working in CSS compared to the layout model supported by any decent native toolkit is like having floats (CSS pun intended) but no ints. Sure, you can do a lot with floats, but it's a hell of a lot more work than it ought to be, and no matter how hard you try you still get mysterious and unprofessional-looking errors in weird edge cases.
McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project Posted Oct 4, 2010 15:12 UTC (Mon) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link] Please have a look at the CSS3 Template Layout Module and let me know if you're opinion still holds. http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/ Screenshot of layoutHere's the cSS
@page :first {
display: "A A A A A A A A A" / 5cm
". . . . . . . . ." / 0.25cm
"B . C C C C C C C" / *
"B . C C C C C C C" / *
"B . C C C C C C C" / *
"B . C C C C C C C" / *
"B . C C C C C C C" / *
"B . D D D D D D D" / *
"B . D D D D D D D" / *
"B . E E E . F F F" / *
"B . E E E . F F F" / *
"B . E E E . F F F" / *
* 3em * 3em * 3em * 3em *
}
h1 {position: a; border-bottom: thick; margin-bottom: 1.5em}
#toc {position: b; margin-right: -1.5em; border-right: thin;
padding-right: 1.5em}
#leader {position: c; columns: 4; column-gap: 3em}
#art1 {position: d; columns: 4; column-gap: 3em; border-top: thin}
#art2 {position: e; columns: 2; column-gap: 3em}
#art3 {position: f; columns: 2; column-gap: 3em}
That's quite powerful and very easy to update. What other toolkit allows for such ease?
McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project Posted Oct 4, 2010 22:57 UTC (Mon) by ajf (subscriber, #10844) [Link] I'm familiar with that, and I think it has been unfairly derided as "ASCII art". But I also think I know why you had to post a link to a screenshot instead of a web page containing that in its stylesheet so I could see it for myself: because nobody has actually implemented this proposal. Even positive comment describes it as "How we'll lay out websites in 2016".
McGrath: Proposal for a new Fedora project Posted Oct 5, 2010 15:20 UTC (Tue) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link] I doubt it will be 2016 before the relevant browsers implement it. Browser development is starting to heat up again and they all seem to want to follow the W3C specs. Even IE9! My guess is that within 3 years we'll see CSS Template Layout implemented in Gecko, Webkit and Trident. For now we have Flexible Box Layout Module which is still quite nice.
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