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(Nearly) full tickless operation in 3.10
A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian
Posted Sep 22, 2010 20:00 UTC (Wed) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322)
Posted Sep 22, 2010 21:27 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
Debian Stable rapidly becomes woefully obsolete - it's usually about 3-4 years old. New hardware is not supported, new versions of infrastructure software (Python, Ruby, Java, etc.) are not supported and so on.
It's nice to run it on servers, but I'm not able to use it even on locked-down business desktops!
My favorite idea is splitting Debian into "Debian Core" and "Debian Universe". "Debian Core" will have fairly rapid release cycle (yearly, perhaps) and will include only core infrastructure software (kernel, X, Python, gcc). And "Debian Universe" will contain everything else.
Kinda like Ubuntu's model of Multiverse or Arch's AURs.
Posted Sep 22, 2010 21:50 UTC (Wed) by dbruce (subscriber, #57948)
No, it has never been more than 3 years old. The only time it was ever over two years old was between July 2004 and June 2005 (due to the infamously-delayed Sarge release). Until 2002, Debian released a stable distro every year. Since Sarge, it has been just under two years between releases.
So in recent years, Stable has always been between zero and two years old, with the mean age being about a year.
Posted Sep 22, 2010 22:09 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
You're forgetting the time spent in pre-release freeze. For example, Lenny has Linux 2.6.26 which was released on 13 Jul 2008. So it's already 2 years old and is going to be about 3 years when Squeeze is going to be released.
Python 2.5.2 (in Lenny) was released on Feb 18 2008 - already more than 2.5 year old.
Posted Sep 23, 2010 12:42 UTC (Thu) by dbruce (subscriber, #57948)
Posted Oct 5, 2010 13:19 UTC (Tue) by dererk (subscriber, #67491)
That is, following your understanding, Red Hat Enterprise Linux offers a 4 years old distribution (because they distribute 2.6.18 kernel which was realized 14th Oct 2006), or, in the same way, it's 6 years old, because it includes python 2.4 released on 2004...
It's a stable software, in software engineer that would basically mean it has been proven to work in most testing scenarios, unfortunately for some cases, *that time* is too much.
I really think CUT would be a solution for them. Once again, thanks JoeyHess the great tools you invent and code (altogether with etckeeper, debconf itself, and so on!)!
Posted Sep 22, 2010 22:20 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868)
So, by your measures, Squeeze is not yet 0 years old, but if you measure by firefox version included, it's already 8 months out of date and it hasn't even been released yet.
I don't have a major problem with that; I use Debian on all my machines -- stable (lenny) on most of them. And basically the only software I've upgraded on those is emacs23 and linux 2.6.32.
But it does seem somewhat of a shame that it takes so long to stabilize things and get a release ready after starting to freeze packages, that much of the software is 6+ months out of date at the day of release. Maybe CUT will help with that.
Posted Sep 23, 2010 15:04 UTC (Thu) by juliank (subscriber, #45896)
> - Linux 2.6.32 (not 2.6.33-2.6.35, 2.6.33 released Feb 24)
Well, 2.6.32 will be maintained longer than 2.6.33, 2.6.34, or 2.6.35; and makes much more sense for a Debian release.
> - GCC 4.4 (not 4.5, released Apr 15)
Same for Ubuntu 10.04 and Ubuntu 10.10; moving to a new GCC version is usually a bit complicated.
> - Firefox 3.5 (not 3.6, released Jan 21)
> - Thunderbird 3.0 (not 3.1, released Jun 24)
Mozilla stuff is generally a problem, as far as I know.
Posted Sep 26, 2010 14:15 UTC (Sun) by pgquiles (guest, #70318)
Ubuntu 10.10 already has Python 2.7
>> - GCC 4.4 (not 4.5, released Apr 15)
>Same for Ubuntu 10.04 and Ubuntu 10.10; moving to a new GCC version is >usually a bit complicated.
Ubuntu 10.10 already has gcc 4.5
If Ubuntu can develop something quite stable with 6-month release cycles and 2-month stabilization cycles, why can't Debian try it? (openSuse has 9-month release cycle and also works well for them)
Posted Sep 26, 2010 14:34 UTC (Sun) by juliank (subscriber, #45896)
> Ubuntu 10.10 already has gcc 4.5
It's not the default, so it does not matter.
Debian has those packages as well, in experimental. In Ubuntu, there is no thing such as experimental, so it needs to be in maverick in order to be in Ubuntu.
Posted Sep 30, 2010 17:49 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784)
But it's going to be way outdated at release time, if you take some specific high-profile examples:
- Python 2.6 (not 2.7, released Jul 3)
I suppose using something like Python 2.5 (as I do on the semi-supported Kubuntu 8.04 release) occasionally results in brushing up against code written needlessly against Python 2.6-or-later features, but quite a lot of that can be fixed quite quickly, especially if that code is limited to people doing stupid things with setuptools instead of just providing sane distutils stuff in their setup scripts.
Really, Python 2.6 is the launchpad release for people jumping to 3.x, with 2.7 being the successor in that regard, plus extra gravy.
Your other examples are somewhat better, however, although there's almost always a case to be made for holding back on the newer stuff, especially if adopting such stuff means several laps of the track for those having to integrate and test it with everything else.
Posted Sep 22, 2010 22:22 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868)
Actually that's not true. The stable kernel updates *do* include new hardware support, where it's possible to backport in a reasonable way. For example, the onboard ethernet card in my desktop (running lenny) wasn't supported in the original kernel, but is now.
For etch (the one before lenny), they even released a new upstream kernel partway through the stable cycle which could be optionally installed.
Posted Sep 23, 2010 8:03 UTC (Thu) by micka (subscriber, #38720)
Anyway, I always update to unstable right after the end of testing install (read minutes after). Testing is outdated as soon as it freezes (sometimes even before).
Posted Sep 23, 2010 15:00 UTC (Thu) by foom (subscriber, #14868)
If you submit a bugreport, it might get added.
Posted Sep 23, 2010 7:00 UTC (Thu) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322)
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