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SCO's new offensive

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 22, 2003 4:49 UTC (Tue) by raph (guest, #326)
In reply to: SCO's new offensive by tjc
Parent article: SCO's new offensive

>This hasn't gone to court yet, so passing judgement on the US legal system
> on the basis of SCO's actions alone hardly seems fair.

Actually, I think it is fair. What they're doing is threatening people and companies using nothing other than the US legal system. In a just world, nobody would pay them any attention, let alone give them enough credence to boost their stock and enable serious profits from stock sales. Just imagine how much good the total legal bills in this fiasco could do if they were embezzled towards the free software community instead.


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SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 22, 2003 12:38 UTC (Tue) by rknop (guest, #66) [Link]

Actually, I think it is fair. What they're doing is threatening people and companies using nothing other than the US legal system. In a just world, nobody would pay them any attention, let alone give them enough credence to boost their stock and enable serious profits from stock sales. Just imagine how much good the total legal bills in this fiasco could do if they were embezzled towards the free software community instead.

Yes, thank you.

And, it's not just the courts and the legal system I'm complaining about. It's the whole damn ball of wax. I will grant you that if you look at history, you can't find a system that's done better than our capitalistic mess (or, perhaps, than other versions of it-- I don't really believe that the USA has the highest standard of living for all of its citizens any more, although the true degree of personal freedom is debatable) when it comes to preserving human rights and individual freedom with large governments. But just because everything else that has been tried is worse doesn't mean that our system isn't a travesty... as this SCO business points out. I don't know the answer, but the whole thing makes me throw my hands up in frusturation. The fact that they might have a case and that people give them credence, the fact that according to the paper trail the people who are running SCO now and never contributed a damn thing (in contrast to the engineers and such from Caldera and SCO of years past-- it's not the same company any more), the fact that these parasites may actually "legally" have the intellectual property rights either to specific bits of code, or even to some more amorphously defined thing that could, under our system, make much of Linux a "derived work"-- well, it's plainly ridiculous on the face of it. Whatever you think about intellectual property in general, it's difficult to think that there is any justice in these particular SCO jokers being able to make the claim that they're making. And yet, our whole legal and economic system with its buying and selling of rights does allow a paper trail that makes that claim ostensively credible.

If they are laughed at by everybody else, and if they eventually get laughed out of court, I'll feel a lot better. But it's almost already too late for that; the media has given them far too much credence, and analysists and such haven't come out and said that SCO should just be ignored. And there is a possibility that eventually the courts will say that the current implementation of Linux is derived from SCO's ill-gotten intellectual property. That will put a huge kink in Linux from which it may never recover. Sure, as soon as they're told what it actually is that SCO is bitching about, and as soon as they're given reason to believe that there might be something behind SCO's bitching (according to the potential opinion of the courts, even though it's almost certainly bullshit in reality), the Linux kernel developers will rip it out and replace it. But the damage will be done. Future versions of Linux, even without the infringing code, will always carry with them the doubt that there might be an SCO tie, and no corporate purchaser with any sense is going to allow it at his company. Linux will return in status to where it was in 1995 or thereabouts-- used by the hobbiest only, and with any driver support it has coming years after the support for proprietary operating systems. I sure as hell hope I'll still be able to use it in an academic setting, but we've all got our lawyers and such as well who will probably tell us to buy something proprietary "for safety".

The fact that this is even a reasonable possibility just makes me sick thinking about our screwed up system. The whole idea of patents and copyrights and such is to encourage and reward creators, and the whole idea of civil law is to prevent people from taking advantage of each other. But the marriage of those two has spanwed this foul beast which is the SCO legal team making their intellectual property claims, despite the fact that they've never contributed a damn thing to society, despite the fact that they're the ones who would destroy one of the greatest movements of intellectual freedom in history for their own personal monetary gain, despite the fact that they never created the tiniest piece of Unix and as such are not the ones that copyright and patent laws in this country are theoretically supposed to be "protecting". That our system allows them even to try, even to be given the slightest bit of credence by those who listen, indicate that our system is fundamentally flawed and poorly motivated. And, yes, no other system is better, but as I said, not being worse doesn't make you good.

-Rob

Silly legal and social systems

Posted Jul 22, 2003 14:30 UTC (Tue) by jeff@uclinux.org (subscriber, #8024) [Link]

Yes, actually Canada has a better standard of living and a (less than slightly?) less
messed up legal system. Protections for Citizens is somewhat better too, and our
"social safety net" is astonishing compaired to the US where if you can't pay, you
could end up dying from it.

Many other countries have evolved legal and social systems, based on the same principals,
as the US and Canada which surpass both. BTW, I'm not trolling, it is a fact that we are
not the top for standard of living (Canada or US) or perhaps even freedom (Canada).

J.

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 22, 2003 14:33 UTC (Tue) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

I don't know the answer, but the whole thing makes me throw my hands up in frusturation.

All of the world's problems can be summed up in one word: people. If we weren't here, everything would be fine. ;-)

loser pays

Posted Jul 22, 2003 19:59 UTC (Tue) by pflugstad (subscriber, #224) [Link]

Go read this:

http://overlawyered.com/topics/lpays.html

scroll past the articles at the top and read the summary.

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 24, 2003 6:06 UTC (Thu) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link]

I don't really believe that the USA has the highest standard of living for all of its citizens any more, although the true degree of personal freedom is debatable

This is uncontroversial. USA is at the forefront in pure economic terms (though beat by some small rich states) but in general living-standard they are not leading.

The UN Human Development Index for example, is a index based on a multitude of social and economic indicators such as income, gender inequality, access to education, poverty-level, illiteracy, life-expectancy, infant mortality, access to healthcare and so on.

In 2003 USA scored 7th place. Beat by (in sequence) Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands and Belgium.

Still quite good offcourse, since 7th out of 55 "highly developed" countries is still respectable.

This unshakeable belief that some Americans seem to have that their country is the best possible one is quite silly though.

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 24, 2003 8:34 UTC (Thu) by Liefting (subscriber, #8466) [Link]

That's cute...

As far as I know, 3 or 4 (I'm not sure about Norway) of these countries are actually kingdoms. One has a women president, and one was started by shipping prisoners to what was then considered a mostly-empty continent.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 31, 2003 13:22 UTC (Thu) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

Norway is a kingdom.

What does it make you wonder?

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 30, 2003 4:55 UTC (Wed) by ronzone (guest, #10671) [Link]

This is uncontroversial. USA is at the forefront in pure economic terms (though beat by some small rich states) but in general living-standard they are not leading.

The UN Human Development Index for example, is a index based on a multitude of social and economic indicators such as income, gender inequality, access to education, poverty-level, illiteracy, life-expectancy, infant mortality, access to healthcare and so on.

In 2003 USA scored 7th place. Beat by (in sequence) Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands and Belgium.

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 31, 2003 10:07 UTC (Thu) by dark (subscriber, #8483) [Link]

I think that even your nightmare scenario is just a matter of educating the public. Only a dumb lawyer would recommend buying proprietary software "for safety", because it isn't any safer. Consider that a victory for SCO (in some alternate reality :) would also mean IBM's AIX license is revoked, leaving all of IBM's customers in need of licenses from SCO. It would also mean that SCO has similar rights to every proprietary Unix except Sun's.

Furthermore, buying proprietary software on a large scale generally means entering into a contract with the vendor, a contract in which you give up many of the protections normally available to a consumer. Microsoft, for example, explicitly disclaims liability for damages resulting from its products, even in cases where Microsoft acted negligently and in bad faith. (Whether it can successfully avoid this liability when sued is another matter, but the rights of copyright holders are getting stronger all the time so it wouldn't surprise me. Next time you see a software license, check if it specifies that disputes must be resolved in a UCITA state.)

Then there's the Timeline incident, which shows that buying proprietary software is just as likely to get you into trouble, and you'll have no recourse other than to stop using the product entirely or pay extra license fees to a third party. Note that Microsoft, again, does not indemnify or protect its customers in such a case.

My examples are from Microsoft because their licenses are public knowledge. I don't know if licenses from other vendors are any better. Judging by the history of the Unix licenses, I doubt they are...

SCO's new offensive

Posted Jul 22, 2003 14:20 UTC (Tue) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

Actually, I think it is fair. What they're doing is threatening people and companies using nothing other than the US legal system.

Yes they are, but that's entirely SCO's transgression, not the US court systems.

One of the foundations of the US legal system is the concept of "due process." I would be very concerned if this principle were set aside. Now that would be something worth complaining about.

In other words, SCO can't be found guilty before they are found guilty. You may think this would be fine, but what if the circumstances were different? Say, for example, that you or I were punished for some crime before we had been tried in court, based soley on public opinion? This is the case in some parts of the world; places that I'm glad I don't live.

It may be evident that SCO is in the wrong to you and I, but this has not yet been tried in court.

guilty plaintiff?

Posted Jul 23, 2003 9:06 UTC (Wed) by djao (subscriber, #4263) [Link]

SCO can't be found guilty before they are found guilty.

Actually, SCO is the plaintiff in the IBM case (which is the only legal case that has been brought forth so far), and "guilty" is not a concept which applies to the plaintiff.

guilty plaintiff?

Posted Jul 23, 2003 17:09 UTC (Wed) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

When I said "guilty" I was referring to the accusations against SCO by members of the Linux community, specifically within the context of this discussion, not the SCO v. IBM case. Sorry about the confusion, I should have been more explicit about this.

It seems resonable (to me) to speculate that SCO's recent actions may result in additional trips to court, especially now that they are attempting to extort protection money from people without even saying what it's for.

guilty plaintiff?

Posted Jul 31, 2003 16:10 UTC (Thu) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link]

> SCO can't be found guilty before they are found guilty.

Actually, here in Germany, SCO has been stopped by court to repeat its lies without proof.
We have consumer protection laws. The stuff SCO tells (without proof) is against those
consumer protection laws. SCO has been found guilty. And they did stopp telling their lies
in Germany (except that those lies they tell elsewhere still are spreaded around here).

Usually, if you tell that someone else did something criminal (and that's what SCO is
doing), you can do that legally in two ways: either you provide a proof, or you clearly mark
it as satire or something like that, so that people understand that it is not meant seriously.

Why can't someone sue SCO on consumer protection laws in the states? There are, you
can get millions for being burned by a surprisingly hot coffee from McDonalds (ah, I
expected coffee at McDonalds to be as stale and lukewarm as their fries are ;-). And why
does nobody, since SCO now obviously breaks the GPL, sue them on breaking contract
law (the GPL), go in, and shut down all their Linux boxes?

SCO's new offensive

Posted Aug 1, 2003 16:39 UTC (Fri) by walterbyrd (guest, #11620) [Link]

>>Yes they are, but that's entirely SCO's transgression, not the US court systems.<<

What about the SEC, DOJ, FTC, and Attorney General?

When a company tells you that you owe them money, when you don't really: that is a lie, and it's fraud.

When the company threatens to sue you over rights that the company only pretends to have: that is extortion and barratry.

When the company pumps it's stock price by proclaiming information that is not true, that is stock manipulation.

The USA legal system is clearly failing in this matter.

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