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Systemd and Fedora 14Systemd and Fedora 14Posted Aug 26, 2010 9:26 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)In reply to: Systemd and Fedora 14 by neiljerram Parent article: Systemd and Fedora 14
systemd is also a user intended to manage user sessions in the future. Hence the path difference
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2010-Aug...
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Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 9:56 UTC (Thu) by neiljerram (subscriber, #12005) [Link]
FWIW, that doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason - because the user-level aspect doesn't exist yet; and because when it does exist, no user is ever going to start systemd manually at a command line, hence there's no requirement to be in /bin - so technically I think my point stands.
The point about enjoying the decision is probably unfair though, so I take that back.
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 10:08 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
I prefer a consistent path rather than one which changes across versions. If the plan is to manage user sessions, I prefer the path be what it is, right from the start. It is a really pain to teach people to relearn new paths and change documentation and so on.
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 10:36 UTC (Thu) by neiljerram (subscriber, #12005) [Link]
For me, the more important consistency is with all other system or predominantly-system daemons being in /sbin. Do you have any firm reason for needing systemd to be in /bin?
Putting systemd in /bin is non-intuitive - as is already acknowledged by Lennart's note that I cited.
(When I find myself writing notes like that, I try to consider whether it would be easy to just fix or improve the software, so that the note isn't needed.)
Will it cause problems? Yes. Some people will put init=/sbin/systemd and then won't be able to boot. They may not immediately realize the fix, and they may not have another computer sitting next to them, or a live disc, to be able to discover the solution easily.
What is the benefit of /bin that balances out this pain and makes the pain worthwhile?
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 11:16 UTC (Thu) by Los__D (subscriber, #15263) [Link]
That it is going to be run by regular users as well?
On many systems, /sbin is not in the regular user paths.
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 18:02 UTC (Thu) by RobSeace (subscriber, #4435) [Link]
And, what's wrong with throwing a symlink into "/bin"?
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 18:09 UTC (Thu) by Los__D (subscriber, #15263) [Link]
Nothing more than throwing a symlink into /sbin.
This is (will be) for both the system and the users, so both /sbin and /bin are equally valid, IMHO.
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 27, 2010 19:51 UTC (Fri) by cdmiller (subscriber, #2813) [Link]
Perhaps it should be renamed Userd.
Sorry couldn't help myself with all the flaming and angst :)
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Sep 2, 2010 9:35 UTC (Thu) by Randakar (guest, #27808) [Link]
Actually putting the symlink in /sbin IS worse than putting it in /bin.
/sbin is intended to be the place where crucial system utilities live that always should be available, AFAIK. When this distinction was made in the (distant) past the idea was that /bin could live on a different filesystem from root. /sbin would contain everything one might need before /bin could get mounted.
Putting systemd in /bin breaks that idea rather thoroughly. Why have the distinction between the two places at all if the init system doesn't live in /sbin?
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Sep 2, 2010 12:05 UTC (Thu) by robbe (subscriber, #16131) [Link]
I assume you are confounding that with the /$d vs. /usr/$d (for values of d in {lib, bin, sbin, ...}) distinction. A system is expected to be able to boot into a more-or-less usable mode without /usr.
Except for embedded systems I don't have access to any machine that would be able to boot without /bin. For example, all shells are located there.
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Sep 2, 2010 18:42 UTC (Thu) by ABCD (subscriber, #53650) [Link] If /bin is on a separate filesystem from /, then you wouldn't even be able to mount /bin because you wouldn't have a /bin/mount program that could mount it. From a footnote in the latest FHS: Deciding what things go into "sbin" directories is simple: if a normal (not a system administrator) user will ever run it directly, then it must be placed in one of the "bin" directories. Ordinary users should not have to place any of the sbin directories in their path.
Systemd and Fedora 14 Posted Aug 26, 2010 10:09 UTC (Thu) by mezcalero (guest, #45103) [Link]
Oh, the user-level aspect is there. It's not complete, but it works just fine. Running systemd as a normal user just works. It won't do much, because no services are registered for it, but if you drop in a couple of .service files you can already manage them in the session with systemd just fine.
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