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The LinuxCon media panel

By Jonathan Corbet
August 11, 2010
A common event at conferences is a panel of developers with reporters listening from the audience; your editor moderated just this kind of panel at LinuxCon 2010. This time around, though, we also saw the tables turned: there was a panel of journalists facing the developers that they write about. The panelists were Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier, Jason Brooks, Sean Michael Kerner, Ryan Paul, and Steven Vaughan-Nichols; it was an interesting opportunity to see how things look from the other side of the keyboard.

The opening question was simple: what was the most significant Linux-related story in the last ten years? Sean wasted no time in naming the SCO case - it is, he says, "the story that keeps on giving"; seven years later and he's still writing about it. Steven, instead, cited IBM's endorsement of Linux and statement that it would be investing $1 billion in the platform. That announcement, he says, legitimized the platform and made it possible for people in companies worldwide to consider using it without getting into trouble. Jason pointed at the birth of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, while Ryan talked about the onset of "mobile ubiquity" and the near dominance that Linux has in that area. Ryan also mentioned MeeGo as an example of how large companies have come to appreciate the value of collaboration.

Zonker, instead, nominated the rise of Ubuntu. He said that Ubuntu forced the other distributors to focus on community, something they had not been doing well before; this is a claim which was not universally accepted by the audience. At this point, Sean jumped in to say that Ubuntu only took off because of the seemingly unending delays in the Debian Sarge release. Had Sarge gone out on time, he says, we would not be hearing so much about Ubuntu now. Steven added that Ubuntu succeeded because it was an attempt at commercializing Debian from the outside; earlier attempts from the inside (he mentioned Ian Murdock in particular) were seriously attacked by the community and didn't get very far.

Moving on: what is the big story for Linux today? The consensus answer seemed to be "Android." Steven claims that ChromeOS is going to be a big deal. He also mentioned the license compliance program just announced by the Linux Foundation which, he says, will speed Linux adoption.

The reporters were then asked about numbers from analysts, which, when it comes to Linux, are somewhat controversial. How do they cope with that uncertainty? Ryan responded that these numbers (covering Linux adoption and such) are not really illustrative and are missing a lot of context. Beyond that, they are the product of companies with conflicts of interest; analyst firms have paying customers who have an interest in how those numbers come out, so the result is not objective. Sean said he does not trust the numbers; they are always wrong, so he does not use them. Jason wished for better numbers on enterprise subscription sales, while Zonker criticized analyst firms for refusing to come up with a solid methodology for counting unpaid Linux use. Steven asked simply: who cares about these numbers anyway?

It was asked: it seems to be harder to get reporters' attention for Linux-related stories in recent years, what are reporters looking for? Sean suggested that there are really only ten Linux stories that he writes and rewrites repeatedly; one of them is "Mark Shuttleworth said..." He also said that he always covers what the big vendors are doing, but news of the form "application X now runs on Linux" is not really interesting. Zonker noted that, while more reporters (with less expertise) are covering Linux due to its increasingly mainstream nature, a lot of reporters have also been laid off in recent years. Steven said that we're seeing a natural progression; like the radio magazines of the 1920's or the Internet magazines of the 1990's, much Linux news has simply become mundane and boring.

Steven also said that there is little interest by publishers in "serious" stories about Linux, a statement that Zonker seconded. It is necessary to write "popular" stories that will draw advertisers. Linux companies, it seems, are not big buyers of online advertising; that affects coverage too. Several of the panelists said that there is still a firm wall between advertising and editorial, but that claim (in your editor's opinion) seems somewhat contradicted by the fact that they have a hard time pitching stories which do not appeal to advertisers. Jason said that the publishing business model is, in general, in trouble and hasn't yet figured out the changes that have come with the Internet.

As an aside, Zonker asked how many members of the audience run AdBlock (quite a few hands were raised). Those people were told that they are "killing publishing, seriously."

Next question: who is the audience for what the panelists are writing? Ryan said that ars technica has a highly diverse audience, since it is not just a Linux-related site. Their readers are technology enthusiasts who (advertisers are told) will take what they learn to the workplace. Jason writes for enterprise information technology workers, while Zonker writes for a number of different publications (including LWN) with a variety of audiences. Steven, too, writes for many audiences.

What about companies becoming their own publishers? Steven claimed that people are becoming confused by publications which really just carry the company line, as opposed to what a real reporter would say. Readers are not asking often enough where a particular bit of news comes from. Ryan noted that open source companies are much more transparent than many others, so information tends to be more accessible; community members can use that information to get the word out, reducing the need for traditional journalism. But Steven noted that these companies always have something that they are not saying - he mentioned silent fixes in Mozilla releases - so there is still a need for people who will dig through stuff. Zonker said that what's often missing is context; he suggested that people will wander into (for example) the GNOME census story without understanding all that's going on.

At that point, time ran out for this standing-room-only session. In your editor's opinion, it was an interesting look at how the more traditional media sees our community and the pressures that reporters are working under. Those people, too, are operating in a rapidly changing world; they have the challenging task of documenting those changes while being very much in the middle of them.


(Log in to post comments)

Adblock

Posted Aug 11, 2010 18:30 UTC (Wed) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]

I predict more people will comment on the Adblock bit than on anything else in this article.

I hope the ensuing discussion stays civil.

Adblock

Posted Aug 11, 2010 19:15 UTC (Wed) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link]

No it won't, dimwit. :-)

Adblock

Posted Aug 11, 2010 22:27 UTC (Wed) by xyzzy (subscriber, #1984) [Link]

Ah, adblock.

I have little clue how much advertising revenue a page impression generates these days but I'm betting it's pretty small. I'd rather use some micropayment system to pay something approximating that small amount than see ads.

Of course the more likely someone is to want to pay to hide advertising, the more valuable they're likely to be to advertisers...

Adblock

Posted Aug 11, 2010 22:50 UTC (Wed) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

> Of course the more likely someone is to want to pay to hide advertising,
> the more valuable they're likely to be to advertisers...

I actually tend to disagree. The small minority of folks who use AdBlock or NoScript to block ads are much more likely to get annoyed with an advertiser and actively avoid their products. Advertisers *should* want to get their ads in front of people who are likely to be ad-friendly or at worst ad-agnostic -- getting them in front of those that are ad-antagonistic is likely to backfire.

I am skeptical that the minute reduction in traffic due to AdBlock and the like is making any real impact on ad revenues either. Certainly it's worse for sites with tech-savvy readers (more likely to use blockers presumably), but makes very little impact on mainstream web advertising, I suspect.

jake

Adblock

Posted Aug 11, 2010 23:04 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

in the context of linux reporting specifically.... If the relatively small set of people interesting in solid linux reporting overlap significantly with the small group of people who use adblock..then that's a real problem for the future of linux news reporting. If the lost revenue from adblock users is just noise, then the added revenue from users interested in linux could be in the noise as well. And I would daresay that our little niche microculture is more prone to using adblock than other niche groups (like for example pet llama owners) making our little revenue contribution even less influential or noteworthy.

If the vast majority of people who don't use adblock are far more interested in celebrity gossip than solid technology reporting then the economics dictate that we are going to see vastly more celebrity gossip news and vanishingly little solid technology reporting. Until we find a way to get Brad Pitt to use an Android phone and our interests crossover with mainstream interests.

-jef

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 7:10 UTC (Thu) by PaulWay (✭ supporter ✭, #45600) [Link]

> I actually tend to disagree. The small minority of folks who use AdBlock
> or NoScript to block ads are much more likely to get annoyed with an
> advertiser and actively avoid their products. Advertisers *should* want to
> get their ads in front of people who are likely to be ad-friendly or at
> worst ad-agnostic -- getting them in front of those that are
> ad-antagonistic is likely to backfire.

I think the original poster's thinking is that if you can somehow get an editorial in front of those AdBlock users that is favourable to a particular product, they are more likely to take that seriously. I.e. once you've convinced them it isn't advertising, they'll believe it. I don't really believe that either, because I think that turning ads off is far more of a statement about being highly selective of the information one chooses to believe than just about not getting bouncing GIFs and monkeys to punch.

From my point of view, if turning AdBlock on is killing publishing, then it deserves to die. I subscribe to LWN not because paying turns off the ads but because it has genuinely good, useful and in-depth content. I would stop my subscription if I believed that the stories were becoming merely promotional material from vendors.

The whole news industry is struggling with this, with paywalls and advertising and free content and subscriptions all stewed together, sometimes seemingly randomly. The one underlying factor is trust and brand loyalty - people would rather read a source they trust, and converting that into a dollar value is the hard part. When journalists tell us that they don't report news because it's not in the advertisers interests, they've immediately shown where their true loyalties lie - and it's not to their readers.

Have fun,

Paul

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 12:34 UTC (Thu) by SEJeff (subscriber, #51588) [Link]

You couldn't have said that better. Those are my thoughts as well.

Adblock

Posted Aug 13, 2010 11:06 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

I use adBlock, but I disable it on sanely-run technical sites, where the ads actually will be relevant to me (and not rubbish about "the secret to weight loss"). E.g. LWN. Also, it's my understanding that the adBlock I use still fetches the ads - it just hides them. So the use should be invisible - though it obviously does devalue internet advertising.

I'm also more than happy with the LWN paywall model. It keeps the site interesting even for non-subscribers, and it doesn't prevent subscribers sharing.

Adblock

Posted Aug 11, 2010 22:47 UTC (Wed) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]

Well, in the context of a subscriber-only article. One would be hard-pressed to claim that any reader here using AdBlock could be accused of 'killing' the publishing business.
Us being here is an indication that we are willing to pay for good (add-free) content.

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 3:11 UTC (Thu) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link]

I don't run Adblock the software, but I seldom see ads. I am so tuned to ignoring them that my brain just blanks them out. About the only time I am aware of them is when they are truly obnoxious with blinking or flashing.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if ads were cut back to 1/100 or 1/1000 of the current frequency, if ads were such novel events that I did pay attention to them. From an admaker's point of view, you can't cut them them back so far as to become affordable only to huge corporations. But if I only had a few hundred in view in a single day, counting computers, magazines, billboards, ads on taxis and buses and so on, and there was little repetition, I might just actually be aware of some of them.

Adblock

Posted Aug 15, 2010 14:39 UTC (Sun) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

I also never used AdBlock, I never really saw the problem. Mind you, I also don't have Flash installed which may have helped.

But then a month ago I was reading a article and halfway down bits starting disappearing from my screen and a fripping animated transformer appeared right over the text I was reading. That killed it for me, I finally spent the few minutes to workout how to installed AdBlock just so I could read the bloody article in peace.

I suppose a lot more gets blocked as collateral damage but I'm not sure whether I care about that...

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 3:27 UTC (Thu) by jhhaller (subscriber, #56103) [Link]

I don't really object to ads as much as I object to slow ads. Staring at a DNS lookup while waiting for content is annoying. People want their computers to be responsive, and the way most of the ads interact with the page make the computer to be slow. Any way to speed the page display while including ads is likely to improve ad acceptance. Unfortunately, most sites do not follow an enlightened display.

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 9:50 UTC (Thu) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link]

That's my argument for ad-block: why should I clog the internet with data that I'm going to ignore, and why should I waste CPU, memory and energy on displaying those ads?

The economic model that has an advertiser pay a content producer for my attention is not in my interests as a consumer. It skews the stories that writers can pitch to their editors. It stops freedom-of-the-press reporting and it queers the pitch of public discourse. Perhaps it's time for Linux news to stand up for free-as-in-freedom software reported by free-as-in-the-press news outlets. Free-as-in-beer? Have you had any free beer recently?

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 13:07 UTC (Thu) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

This is why I turned on AdBlock after years of avoiding it: DNS lookups were excruciatingly slow. The DNS problem turned out to be a configuration error on my part, but still the performance difference is remarkable. Besides the additional DNS lookup, most ads load loads of Flash and badly written javascript, slowing down rendering of the page. Then there is the fact that ads get loaded asynchronously, causing content to jump around while the page is loading. And I haven't even mentioned the seizure-inducing animated gifs.

I don't mind unobtrusive ads, but the web is infested with bad ads. When ads start being served from the same domain as the original content, without Flash or javascript, so that the page load isn't affected, then I'll turn off AdBlock again. Until then, I maintain a whitelist. It currently has 4 entries.

Adblock

Posted Aug 12, 2010 13:43 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Also the advertisers were (for no obvious reason) among the heaviest users of some obscure whacky DNS software that implements just barely enough of the specification to answer A queries from Windows clients.

If you send such a server pretty much anything else, such as an AAAA query, it either silently discards the packet or it returns a NXDOMAIN for an unasked A query. Probably this was sold to the user as a "security" feature, the practical upshot is that lots of perfectly good implementations will stall when trying to connect to some of the popular advertising sites.

You would think that this was something advertising companies would want to fix, but it seems not. Somewhere along the lines "we make advertising" plus "people are annoyed by advertising" became "it's our job to annoy people" and so there was no interest in fixing the problem. I don't know if it ever got fixed at all.

Adblock

Posted Aug 16, 2010 22:43 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]

The problem is that many ads are ANNOYING. Get rid of popups. That includes floating elements that cover up the article content. Get rid of flash and any animation or sound. Stop popping up hover ads when I try to get my mouse cursor from the corner of the screen to some relevant link in the article (especially annoying when the hover ad then covers the fucking link and I have to click some miniscule close button to get the ad out of the way again).

I don't run adblock, but I do run Flashblock, and if someone had an extension that only disabled ads that screw up the page layout or are annoying, I'd gladly and happily run that too.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 11, 2010 19:03 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

My main question is who do the panellists write for? I know Zonker writes a little bit for everyone, but were the panellists all like that or different for each one?

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 11, 2010 19:04 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

And somehow I missed

Next question: who is the audience for what the panelists are writing? Ryan said that ars technica has a highly diverse audience, since it is not just a Linux-related site. Their readers are technology enthusiasts who (advertisers are told) will take what they learn to the workplace. Jason writes for enterprise information technology workers, while Zonker writes for a number of different publications (including LWN) with a variety of audiences. Steven, too, writes for many audiences.

Oops

Who they write for

Posted Aug 11, 2010 20:58 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Sorry, I should have put that in.

  • Joe Zonker Brockmeier: linux.com, OStatic, LWN.
  • Jason Brooks: eWeek
  • Sean Michael Kerner: InternetNews.com
  • Ryan Paul: ars technica
  • Steven Vaughan-Nichols: ComputerWorld

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 12, 2010 3:04 UTC (Thu) by amcpherson (subscriber, #44132) [Link]

You may have also wanted to mention the moderator. Jennifer Cloer of the Linux Foundation.

adblock

Posted Aug 13, 2010 13:55 UTC (Fri) by mstone_ (subscriber, #66309) [Link]

When ad networks stop distributing malware, when ads stop being obnoxious bloated flashy floaters that run around my screen, and when ads don't slow down my browsing experience, then I'll consider turning adblock back off. Until they fix the first problem, I will acknowledge no ethical issue whatsoever in blocking them.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 13, 2010 17:02 UTC (Fri) by niv (subscriber, #8656) [Link]

In the first sentence you meant 2009, not 2010, Jon?

"A common event at conferences is a panel of developers with reporters listening from the audience; your editor moderated just this kind of panel at LinuxCon 2010".

The 2010 (current) conference had the journalists in the panel. I think this was an interesting move. I'd like to have raised the question of the Digg / other possible manipulation of the web/media to actively suppress Linux stories.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 13, 2010 17:09 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

No, I meant what I wrote - I moderated the kernel panel, where the reporters were in the audience. I was remarking (confusingly, perhaps) on how the media panel was different.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 14, 2010 8:14 UTC (Sat) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link]

> what was the most significant Linux-related story in the last ten years?

> Steven, instead, cited IBM's endorsement of Linux and statement that it would be investing $1 billion in the platform.

Wasn't that in 1998? So, not in the last 10 years.

Also, it's rather chump change now compared to total Linux investment. It was, of course, pretty big at the time.

Ads

Posted Aug 16, 2010 13:46 UTC (Mon) by jeremiah (subscriber, #1221) [Link]

I'd prefer to skip the ads altogether for software reviews from a trusted source. Sort of the consumer reports for software. I want negative reviews along with positive reviews that are categorized according to what the software does. LWN is one of the few, perhaps only, places I would trust to be honest. But it will never happen, honest reviews are rarely in the advertiser's best interest. We have higher expectations when it comes to commercial software than we do for OSS (not a flame). It wold be nice if there was some way to ethically charge venders to have their software reviewed, without it influencing the outcome of the review. Perhaps a directory of software that a commercial vendor could pay for a listing, after their software was reviewed in an unbiased fashion. Point being I'd love to be able to come to LWN, as I already do for somethings, and see a list of reviews for a category of software or hardware, where the review was honest, and their was some flag or something that said the vendor upon seeing the review choose to support LWN or some other FOSS project. I don't know if that makes any since, but I like to know about new software/hardware that meets my needs and that it comes from a company that supports my FOSS values. Independently of the outcome of the review. It's a sticky place for a news/review site to try and be, but maybe there is a business model in there somewhere.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 19, 2010 11:58 UTC (Thu) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]

"As an aside, Zonker asked how many members of the audience run AdBlock (quite a few hands were raised). Those people were told that they are "killing publishing, seriously."

Um, no. I would say that if there's something that is killing publishing, it's annoying as hell ads. Ads that are so annoying that people proactively block them.

If publishers are relying on ads to save them, then they should make ads that people don't mind seeing. But if they make distracting, flashing and otherwise annoying ads, they have no-one but themselves to blame.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 20, 2010 17:39 UTC (Fri) by woooee (guest, #54179) [Link]

+1 on the above comment and others like it. The problem is not AdBlock; the problem is that someone found it necessary to put out the time and effort to write AdBlock. Advertising will have to change on the internet as we have some control. With TV, billboards, etc. they can cram anything down our throats they want (flashing, spasmodic filming techniques) and we have no say, except to completely turn off the device. With the internet, if someone doesn't want to view this on their computer, it can be selectively removed and is unlike other advertising mediums. This is a really good thing.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 22, 2010 20:14 UTC (Sun) by steffen780 (guest, #68142) [Link]

No offence to the journalist but most ads are a direct contradiction of publishing. The purpose of the press is to distribute truth, the purpose of most ads today is to distribute lies, lies-by-omission, emotional manipulation and deception.
Macro-economically most ads are also a complete waste as they serve no real purpose. The time when ads where to actually inform people about new or existing products is LONG gone. Of course there are many exceptions, but most ads are unethical. It's therefore a logical fallacy to accuse people who block them of behaving unethically.
And as one of the previous posters has noted there's many practical problems with ads, and especially internet ads:
- Many people have developed the ability to completely blend out ads in their mind. I today for the first time noticed an ad on the LWN page.
- That ability is usually not complete and fails with e.g. animated or very brightly coloured ads - however, the people who have this ability will usually get very annoyed at the rudeness of the advertiser in making it difficult to concentrate on the article.
- Ads are usually hosted on obscure domains by dodgy "marketing networks" that wouldn't know how to detect malware even if they did care. If I go to example.com I expect to connect to example.com, and not google-analytics.com, adcrap1.com, adcrap2.com and adcrap3.com.
- Most (all?) of these dodgy companies make it their business to walk all over the human right to privacy of the reader. Their tracking "technologies" are clearly illegal without opt-in in Europe for example. And is there even a single major web ad network/provider that uses opt-in? I doubt it.

Now I do exclude _sensible_ ads from my claims. Sensible meaning:
- it doesn't attempt to emotionally manipulate the reader
- it contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (as far as is reasonably possible given space constraints)
- it doesn't use flash, JS, or any other method that executes remote code on the reader's machine
- it doesn't flash, blink, move, make noise, or otherwise unduly distract the reader

Since the LWN ads I've seen so far qualify I'm not using adblock on LWN (I do of course use NoScript tho) but I have no quarrel about using it on any site that collaborates with third parties to manipulate or deceive me.

The LinuxCon media panel

Posted Aug 22, 2010 21:30 UTC (Sun) by sjvn (guest, #19124) [Link]

"(in your editor's opinion) seems somewhat contradicted by the fact that they have a hard time pitching stories which do not appeal to advertisers"

You're mistaking how it works in mainstream publishing land. All that the the publishers care about it, for now, are raw hits. Whether the story has anything to do with whatever their advertisers are trying to push is besides the point. Ever wonder, for example, why there are so many dumb slide-shows? It's because, each slide counts as a click.

Now, the stories in a tech, publication have to have something to do with technology, but, trust me, if most publishers could figure out a way to do a slide show of Lindsay Lohan, Kelly Brock, and Eva Mendes--maybe if they were all holding smartphones?--it would be up in a second.

That's not true of all of them, but it is all too true of most of them.

And yes I know, publishing is broken. The business people are still looking for a business plan that works. I just write here myself. I've always steered well clear of the publishing/ad side of the biz.

FWIW, I think what you've been doing with LWN makes a lot of sense. It's not a plan that would work for everyone, but it clearly is a way to get high-quality technology news to hard-core Linux developers, admins, and fans.

Steven

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