GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
Various free software communities, from distributions to individual software projects, have codes of conduct that are meant to govern the behavior of their members, at least in the projects' common areas. The intent is to reduce friction—flamewars and other unproductive communication—between project participants and to present a more welcoming face to newcomers. The GNOME project has a code of conduct that it has been discussing for some time; more recently it has also taken up guidelines for speakers at GNOME conferences.
Based on the discussion, it seems clear that Richard Stallman's keynote at the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit (GCDS) was one of the main reasons that some felt speaker guidelines were needed. His talk ended with a segment about "Emacs virgins" (or the "Saint IGNUcius comedy routine" as Stallman calls it) that was considered to be sexist and thus offensive by some in the community. Stallman has been reprising that particular bit for many years, and he, at least, doesn't see it as sexist. But it certainly offended some, and set off a firestorm of controversy last July.
Sometime after that, concerned folks contacted the GNOME Foundation board
to see what could be done to try to prevent that kind of thing from
happening again. As part of that effort, Matthew Garrett drafted
guidelines, Murray Cumming "improved the wording
", and Vincent
Untz posted a link to the guidelines for
discussion back in
March.
That earlier draft was a bit different than the current, adopted version, but quite similar in spirit. In the discussion back in March, there was some wordsmithing about the "Dealing With Problems" section, but the draft was mostly well-received. Stallman, though, had a concern that the guidelines were overbroad:
Stallman noted that part of his GCDS talk was about the riskiness of using C#, but Sandy Armstrong was quick to point out that the guidelines were aimed at a different part of his presentation:
I don't think they are meant to prevent you from making critical statements on relevant subject matter based on technical or legal arguments.
The discussion tailed off at that point, but was rekindled when Untz announced the final guidelines. Complaints about the guidelines seem to break down into two basic categories: that the rules are too vague, much as Stallman argued in March, or that they constitute "censorship" of speakers. While, strictly speaking, it may not be "censorship" (depending on which of the many definitions is used), it is certainly meant to steer speakers away from certain topics—those that might offend the audience or community.
Patryk Zawadzki doesn't like the vagueness, but thinks that there are other ways to address the problem:
The guidelines are somewhat vague, but that is done on purpose:
There are six separate guidelines listed, some of which are, or should be,
pretty obvious, for example: "Avoid things likely to offend some
people. Your presentation content should be suitable for viewing by a wide
range of audiences so avoid slides containing sexual imagery, violence or
gratuitous swearing.
" Others, though, try to cut to the heart of
the issue and, instead of proscribing conduct or topics,
provide overarching advice:
Stallman's earlier concern was addressed in the revision process, and he is
firmly behind the guidelines: "If the community wants these guidelines, I support
them.
" While the particulars of the GCDS keynote kept popping up in
the discussion, it's clear that only a few really want to continue that
particular debate. As Brian Cameron put it
in a message worth reading in its entirety:
There is something of a sense of resignation to the fact that a policy like
this is
needed. But, as Cameron noted, the board has been criticized for how
quickly and effectively it has responded to offensive presentations in the
past. The
guidelines provide a solid footing for any action the board may wish to
take in the future; one possibility is explicitly mentioned:
"Furthermore, if necessary, the GNOME Foundation might publicly
distance itself from your opinions.
" Michael Meeks summed up the situation well:
The final "Dealing With Problems" section is the part of the document that
has drawn most of the comments this time around. Joanmarie Diggs is concerned that parts of that section are
"neither 'positive' nor 'welcoming' to would-be speakers
". In
particular, the "disclaimer" paragraph, which is meant to head off anticipated
complaints, may be reworked. There seems to be a consensus that changes
are needed in that section, though it's not clear whether it should be
expanded to fill in the gaps, reworked in more welcoming terms, or
eliminated entirely. As Cameron said, the guidelines will likely be a
"living document", and if there are problems with it, changes will be made.
While there is no specific enforcement language in the document ("Enforcement is subject to the judgment of the session overseer
"), Garrett,
at least, sees that
as a possible hole. His original draft
"suggested that event runners be able to stop presentations if they
felt they were gratuitously in breach of the guidelines
", but that
was contentious and was removed. He is concerned that "guidelines
mean little without enforcement
", but does see the current language
as a reasonable compromise. As he notes, there are those who will find the
current watered-down version to be too intrusive, so something of a balance
has been struck between the needs of speakers and their audiences.
There have been plenty of examples of presentations made at free software conferences that offended some subset of their audience. As it is unlikely that the speakers set out to do that, guidelines like these will be helpful to speakers by making them at least stop and think about their words and imagery. That is likely to lead to better presentations and happier audiences, which can only be a good thing.
Posted Jul 1, 2010 0:56 UTC (Thu)
by myopiate (guest, #41091)
[Link]
Rough personalities and misconceptions about religion/race/sex are unavoidable. People are sensitive. The only safe option is to just not talk at all.
Posted Jul 1, 2010 2:06 UTC (Thu)
by Lukehasnoname (guest, #65152)
[Link] (11 responses)
--Richard Stallman
He's making a joke off of religious sacrifice. There is no implication that women are inferior (unless you inherently think religion promotes feminine inferiority). The simple act of making a comment about one sex or the other is not sexism. People who feel uncomfortable or offended enough by this comment to complain to the board of a freedom-promoting organization to change their speech guidelines is way overboard.
RMS is nuts and sometimes says things I don't agree with. That he made that joke only shows he has a bit of a sense of humor when he's not beating up children for not prefixing "GNU" to Linux.
Posted Jul 1, 2010 5:22 UTC (Thu)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link] (7 responses)
Let me just say that "you don't see a problem" and "there is no problem" are not necessarily the same, that this may be one of those times (certainly I think it is). And if you're interested in finding out for yourself whether it is, then the above thread will provide you with many arguments for you to think about.
Posted Jul 2, 2010 13:23 UTC (Fri)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (6 responses)
On a more constructive note, and I apologize if that's a no-no for this topic, how would you propose to tell the difference between what I perceive and what you perceive and what's true? Can there be said to be a truth if we don't agree and can't objectively measure it? If you'll grant that it's difficult to say then I'll grant that you may be right and we can both back off of presuming that our opinions are fundamentally correct.
Posted Jul 5, 2010 14:21 UTC (Mon)
by Baylink (guest, #755)
[Link] (1 responses)
There's some clear territory at each edge, and a big grey area in the middle, and some people are spring-loaded to the pissed-off position, in my best friend's favorite phrasing, and they're going to get offended by
"Hi, my name is Greg",
because they think you're making fun of AA members.
So everyone just needs to act like grownups; if someone says something egregious, do something about it -- like walking out of the room.
Cause the people who *don't* walk out of the room when it's called for are just as bad as the people who freak out for no good reason.
Posted Jul 5, 2010 16:32 UTC (Mon)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link]
Do you *really* mean to say that people with a legitimate reason to feel marginalized should just stand up and make a target of themselves? It's quite a Catch-22; if they do stand up then they'll be accused of being hysterical and freaking out for no reason, but if they don't, you're saying, then they're *also* just as bad as people who freak out for no reason.
I mean, have you ever had to worry that speaking out about this sort of thing would lead to the destruction of your career or ostracisation from the community?
But that said, I am glad to hear you support attempts to "do something" about egregious behavior.
Posted Jul 5, 2010 16:27 UTC (Mon)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link] (3 responses)
I can see why you'd worry that a question like this might be a "no-no", but I'd encourage you not to think about things that way. There's a lot of people who think that arguments about social justice are an attempt to impose some sort of Rules on Discourse. Some are so offended by this idea that they start making slurs about "political correctness", others think that there's maybe a good point in here somewhere but are scared to talk because they don't know the rules.
No-one gave me a rule-book, I've just spent some time reading and thinking about this stuff, and decided that I wouldn't stay quiet and let it slide anymore. (And I'm sure if I keep talking about it then at some point I'll slip and say something horrible that I'll regret later. But that's the risk we take every time we interact with other people. If it happens I'll just do my best to make up for it.)
Anyway, personally I'm not going to be offended by a question asked in good faith!
> Can there be said to be a truth if we don't agree and can't objectively measure it?
Of course not -- but there's a middle ground between pure subjectivism (everything's an opinion!) and pure objectivism (there's only one truth and mine is better than yours!). Unfortunately, that middle ground requires us to all muddle along and try to achieve the best consensus approximation to underlying reality that we can get, while never being sure how well we're doing, but so it goes.
In this case, the OP was claiming that 1) there was one correct reading of RMS's statements, and that correct reading was not in any way harmful to women and therefore 2) anyone who was offended was over-reacting. My feeling is that while the OP is entitled to their reading of RMS's statements, the critical question is whether those statements also invited other, legitimate readings that *were* harmful. And when you have a movement leader getting up to exhort a crowd of (mostly) men to go out, find women, and take away their virginity -- okay, it was only their *emacs* virginity, but still. I don't think a woman would have to be "hysterical" to find that speech unsettling and off-putting. And I don't think, say, mjg59 is going overboard in his reasons for being offended either: http://lwn.net/Articles/348649/
So, I could be wrong (and I never claimed to have the objective truth). But in this case I'm reasonably confident that I'm closer to the truth than the OP was in their original post (though I'd still certainly be happy to hear other thoughts).
Posted Jul 14, 2010 18:44 UTC (Wed)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (2 responses)
My aside was a bitter joke. Constructive debate on this topic is not so much frowned upon as it is not to be found, nor attempted. This sad state of affairs persists because emotions run high on all sides of this and one cannot begin to converse on the topic without raising someone's blood. The OPs post was of a short tone, as was your reply. Mine was chiding and not particularly conciliatory. This topic always degenerates to this point, and then to veiled insults, condescension and a flame war. Trying to keep things reasonable is an exercise in futility.
Case and point, check your reaction to the rest of my reply. Note, also, the already-degenerated tone of my reply as I go beyond the neutral "it's not clear-cut" and in to my actual perspective.
>In this case, the OP was claiming that 1) there was one correct reading of RMS's statements, and that correct reading was not in any way harmful to women and therefore 2) anyone who was offended was over-reacting. My feeling is that while the OP is entitled to their reading of RMS's statements, the critical question is whether those statements also invited other, legitimate readings that *were* harmful.
Must I quote occam's razor? The simplest explanation is usually correct and it is simpler not to presume malice, therefore it is likely that malice was not intended. The critical question is not "can it be read in a way that is harmful?" but "was there harmful intent?" I do not deny the possibility that someone might have been offended, because that's always possible and in this case it is quite apparent. I deny that taking offense is an appropriate response to the material, which I would describe as no more than mildly abhorrent.
That said, what you think the OP was claiming is not at all how I read the OP's claim. He made a factual statement about what the subject was when RMS was speaking, which is not an assertion about how many ways what RMS said could be read. He then asserted that the statements did not imply that women are inferior, which is not the same as saying that they could not be interpreted harmfully. He then asserted that commenting about genders is not inherently sexist, which is a neutral point that I hope no one will dispute but which I could defend if you like. He did not at that point say that being offended was over-reacting, what he said that taking such offense that you lodge a formal complaint and request formal censorship of future speakers is an over-reaction.
With the OPs points I am in general agreement. Requesting that speakers be censored is an extreme action which I would expect only in extreme circumstances, certainly only after repeat offenses from multiple speakers and only after less strict methods of resolution have been tried and failed. To leap straight to that smacks of malice in its own right, or at least an agenda that is at odds with common sense.
Posted Jul 14, 2010 19:07 UTC (Wed)
by sfeam (subscriber, #2841)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 23, 2010 10:42 UTC (Fri)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 13:59 UTC (Thu)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 19:17 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (1 responses)
Sure, it is a joke. And it would remain equally funny if the "emacs virgin" was either sex. Perhaps it would be even funnier if it is the stereotyped male geek who plays the rôle of the virgin to be thrown into the flaming volcano in some B movie...
Posted Jul 1, 2010 23:36 UTC (Thu)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link]
> the "emacs virgin" was either sex. This change has been in place since last year.
RMS agreed to the rules long ago, and reaffirms that position from time to time.
What's happening on the gnome-foundation list seems to be more about RMS-bashing than about equality or inclusion :-/ If one can't attack his philosophy, just derail the discussion by digging up, again, a joke from a year ago that got taken badly.
Posted Jul 1, 2010 2:18 UTC (Thu)
by ewan (guest, #5533)
[Link] (4 responses)
I can see why the foundation wants to steer clear of defining what is or is not offensive, but setting the bar at 'someone being uncomfortable' is way too low; without having some sort of provision like 'a reasonable fraction of the audience being uncomfortable' it only takes one audience member with odd views to feel 'uncomfortable' (not even 'offended') and suddenly the speaker's held to be at fault.
Posted Jul 1, 2010 9:59 UTC (Thu)
by NAR (subscriber, #1313)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 18:45 UTC (Thu)
by clugstj (subscriber, #4020)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 19:19 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (1 responses)
Funny. I just came across a post from an audience member at Linus' talk on git at Google who was greatly offended by his snide remarks on CVS (and subversion)...
Posted Jul 4, 2010 22:06 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
I think he must have been trolling, or possibly in need of psychiatric counselling (not surprising after using CVS).
;}
Posted Jul 1, 2010 12:25 UTC (Thu)
by jackb (guest, #41909)
[Link]
If he told a bad joke and a large fraction of the audience stood up and walked out of the room it would be a far more effective way of enforcing good behavior.
Posted Jul 1, 2010 13:53 UTC (Thu)
by Seegras (guest, #20463)
[Link] (3 responses)
(And indeed, having rules imposed against swearing does make me very uncomfortable. I get a very eerie feeling associated with totalitarism and historical atrocities related to them. No joke.)
Posted Jul 1, 2010 14:42 UTC (Thu)
by louie (guest, #3285)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 21:34 UTC (Thu)
by ewan (guest, #5533)
[Link]
Posted Jul 2, 2010 8:52 UTC (Fri)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 16:10 UTC (Thu)
by martinfick (subscriber, #4455)
[Link]
Posted Jul 1, 2010 17:47 UTC (Thu)
by dmadsen (guest, #14859)
[Link]
Posted Jul 2, 2010 2:30 UTC (Fri)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's disappointing that GNOME doesn't have the maturity to handle this sort of presentation. Fortunately there are lots of technical development venues that do.
Posted Jul 8, 2010 23:16 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
I was thinking something like that ...
Can't give chapter and verse I'm afraid, but I'm thinking of an incident in an (I think) university magazine. It came out, and the feminist lobby were up in arms - "it's outrageous, how could a man do this, etc etc".
Then they were invited to meet the artist who'd penned this particular piece. A woman!
Cheers,
Posted Jul 2, 2010 2:44 UTC (Fri)
by paulmfoster (guest, #17313)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Jul 3, 2010 0:04 UTC (Sat)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link] (8 responses)
I have always been amazed at people's capacity to be offended. I learned early in a publishing career that if enough people read you, some will always find a way to be offended by what you wrote. As someone with a thick skin and sharp sense of humor, all I can do is keep a list, since the offense doesn't register to me at all. But the list keeps growing. I once wrote a notice about the culling of a database as a comical satire of a recent layoff at the company. Someone complained to my manager and he explained that making light of a layoff is offensive. OK.
But those of us with senses of humor can't really criticize people without -- that's just another way to be. We can't really say, "Oh, you haven't been hurt." How do we know?
Posted Jul 3, 2010 2:31 UTC (Sat)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (6 responses)
My rationale while writing the original draft of these guidelines wasn't "You must avoid offending anyone". It was "Don't deliberately offend people, and if you accidentally do so then apologise and attempt to avoid further offense". The aim is to make people think before they stand up in front of an audience, and also to avoid lengthy and entirely pointless arguments about whether or not somebody's unhappiness is logically justifiable.
Posted Jul 5, 2010 13:46 UTC (Mon)
by nye (subscriber, #51576)
[Link] (1 responses)
That reminds me of my suggestion for Twin Towers Commemorative Jenga.
Posted Jul 7, 2010 11:07 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Jul 6, 2010 23:47 UTC (Tue)
by martinfick (subscriber, #4455)
[Link] (3 responses)
Hmmm, so the speaker must think about how he might offend people who are illogically unhappy? How is one supposed to figure this out by thinking? "Think hard about how illogical people might react?" Why is the speaker held to a higher standard than the audience? Or should I ask instead, why should the speaker lower himself to the standard of some minority in the audience? This is not a recipe for creating conferences which involve critical thinking, it is a recipe to create conferences which only talk about known agreed upon things; what a waste of a conference.
"Don't deliberately offend people, and if you accidentally do so then apologise and attempt to avoid further offense".
And what if I make an extremely important ethical point (not just some random joke) that accidentally offends some people, am I suppose to apologize because they hold unethical beliefs and were offended? I might be offended at their beliefs, should they apologize to me?! What if I am offended at your guidelines (I am), should you apologize to me? There is no end to this circular logic.
The reality of political correctness is that it is not about being offended, it is about which particular subjects one may or may not be offensive about!
* It's NOT OK to be offensive about race, sex or religion.
* It IS OK to be offensive by potentially advocating a particular political point: free software vs opens source, or that you may or may not (ethically) use proprietary software. It is OK to be offensive by telling people their software lacks important features or is buggy/insecure. It is OK to be offensive by ridiculing older not so well designed software. It is OK to be offensive by telling people that they didn't think before speaking. It is OK to be offensive by insulting large corporations at which many in the audience might work, by claiming that they do not contribute their share, or to speculate about the evil reasons they may have done something...
Political correctness is hypocritical agenda pushing which in itself should be viewed as offensive.
Posted Jul 7, 2010 2:56 UTC (Wed)
by maco (guest, #53641)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 7, 2010 3:45 UTC (Wed)
by martinfick (subscriber, #4455)
[Link]
Posted Jul 8, 2010 11:45 UTC (Thu)
by ariveira (guest, #57833)
[Link]
+1
Posted Jul 4, 2010 20:06 UTC (Sun)
by johnflux (guest, #58833)
[Link]
\s
Posted Jul 5, 2010 14:25 UTC (Mon)
by Baylink (guest, #755)
[Link] (1 responses)
. Be ye not overly annoying *nor too easily annoyed*.
It's that second clause that causes people the most trouble...
Posted Jul 8, 2010 23:24 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
On Groklaw I tend to have a hair-trigger over "British English". The Americans there sometimes forget there are a lot of "furriners" there, and I'm quite happy for them to live their insular delusions :-) but when they assume that EVERYthing is American, I tend to throw a bit of a wobbly :-)
Somebody made the mistake of complaining about the use of the word "maths" recently :-) I could complain about the use of the word "math" ...
Cheers,
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
Cause the people who *don't* walk out of the room when it's called for are just as bad as the people who freak out for no good reason.
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
Not withstanding the "These guidelines are not to be interpreted as prohibiting the serious raising of a bona fide technical, legal or ethical issue during a presentation" bit the simplistic statement that "If someone in your audience is uncomfortable with something you've said, you're not doing your job" is still overbroad, and the two sections can easily be made to come into direct conflict with each other, which is a recipe for messy arguments.
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
gratuitous swearing
gratuitous swearing
gratuitous swearing
I like to swear as much as the next guy, but I still think gratuitous swearing in conference presentations is a behaviour that should be censured.
gratuitous swearing
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
In 2007 I did the TAPR keynote, which I reprised for the San Francisco LUG (the Chinese Restaurant one) sometime later. It's entitled "Coming of Age as a Radio Amateur". The age was 50. There are a lot of tongue in cheek references to male menopause, including photos of antennas being raised by men in raincoats, the antenna on the back of my car at which I commented "it's seen a girl Prius and it's excited", and of course a political policy and technical discussion. I got a standing ovation from TAPR, and fan mail from at least one woman attending who expected to be bored.GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
Wol
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
> should be viewed as offensive.
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
GNOME finalizes its speaker guidelines
Wol