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Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition
Mark Shuttleworth describes a global
menu for the 10.10 Netbook Edition. "In the netbook edition for
10.10, we're going to have a single menu bar for all applications, in the
panel. Our focus on netbooks has driven much of the desktop design work at
Canonical. There are a number of constraints and challenges that are
particular to netbooks, and often constraints can be a source of insight
and inspiration. In this case, wanting to make the most of vertical space
has driven the decision to embrace the single menu approach."
(Log in to post comments)
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 27, 2010 22:24 UTC (Tue) by maney (subscriber, #12630) [Link] ...wanting to make the most of vertical space has driven the decision to embrace the single menu approach.Why, I think I have been saying nothing else for years.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 27, 2010 22:40 UTC (Tue) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]
Does this mean it's going to be the same way as in Mac OS? I wonder what they would do to make Qt applications give up their menus. Develop patches for the library? Or just exclude all Qt apps from this edition? Well, good luck, Mark.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 27, 2010 22:44 UTC (Tue) by khc (subscriber, #45209) [Link]
He addressed Qt applications in the article...
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 27, 2010 23:01 UTC (Tue) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]
KDE has had an official global menu mode for a long time. This is not something where KDE is getting screwed.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 8:12 UTC (Wed) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]
How do you turn it on?
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 9:37 UTC (Wed) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 10:52 UTC (Wed) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]
Is this KDE3?
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 12:16 UTC (Wed) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]
It is. It seems to be discontinued in KDE4. I guess Canonical is going to write a little module exposing Qt menus to dbus, as they said in the article Qt apps would also work.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 27, 2010 23:29 UTC (Tue) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link]
I have a hard time imagining how this menu bar is going to fit in there with all the other crap. I spent a few minutes today uncluttering my panel so I could see the application icons, and I'm on a regular 12" notebook, not a netbook.
By the way, I would like to point out that the notification area (or whatever they are calling it) which alerts you to your incoming messages is pretty much not compatible with the panel's autohide feature. When the panel autohides, I think the message notification should pivot to using OSD notification instead of panel icons.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 1:11 UTC (Wed) by dmitrij.ledkov (subscriber, #63320) [Link]
I bet the global menu will have app-indicators & you will not be able to autohide it.
(tongue-in-cheek) "It's human! Problem Solved"
Also can you give an example which app-indicator does a notification without showing a bouble? Messeging menu emits both: Popup & Changes app-indicator icon. The "required restart" only changes icon color and menu text in the login/shutdown indicator but to be honest I was always annoyed by those popups "Restart is Required....."
It seems that Ayatana Team are trying to achieve total separation of application and its state E.g. your app will receive a callback when menu item is clicked but it's up to user to decide where/how the menu is actually rendered, you can notify the user but the indicator/popup will happen depending on user machine and etc. I wonder how far they will go with these inovations.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 2:07 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
How far will they go? Something involving the word "cloud" most likely.
-jef
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 7:24 UTC (Wed) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]
"I'm on a regular 12" notebook, not a netbook"
Same thing, different word.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 8:01 UTC (Wed) by miekg (subscriber, #4403) [Link]
And how will this work with focus-follows-mouse? Not. I guess.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 9:26 UTC (Wed) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]
All apps are maximized.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 15:31 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
> And how will this work with focus-follows-mouse? Not. I guess.
Well besides that 'focus-follows-mouse' is really really really horrible way to do things; The context of the menu will change with whatever window you have active.
So I assume whatever window you have focus on will automatically update the menu contexts.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 16:17 UTC (Wed) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
>So I assume whatever window you have focus on will automatically update the menu contexts.
This means of course that you need to drag a window to the top of the screen if you ever want to use the menu, or you'll select something else on the way there. This might be okay on the netbook UI since it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to assume application windows will always be maximised, in which case the focus model becomes irrelevant. This is starting to sound quite reminiscent of Chrome OS.
But what's wrong with focus-follows-mouse? If ever I have to try using a computer using click-to-focus, I always eventually get so frustrated that I give up and decide to go and read a book or something.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 29, 2010 15:28 UTC (Thu) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]
I've got a netbook. (Aspire One, 9" widescreen)
I hate maximised windows.
So no it's NOT reasonable to assume windows will be maximised on a netbook.
Cheers,
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 29, 2010 22:18 UTC (Thu) by cdmiller (subscriber, #2813) [Link]
"Well besides that 'focus-follows-mouse' is really really really horrible way to do things"
Heh, guess I've been doing things horribly since around 1993.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 10:03 UTC (Wed) by Frej (subscriber, #4165) [Link]
If they are worried about vertical pixels they might try to fix the default font or spacing use in gtk treeview. Try to compare screens of itunes and rhythmbox list view...
Beyond the Mac Posted Apr 28, 2010 13:15 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]
Although there are undoubtedly those who argue that this is the right thing to do because it's what the Mac does, and some of those people may actually have something resembling a proper argument in claiming that the reduced screen space has to be more efficiently used than having menu bars at the top of each window, it should be noted that back in the days when vertical resolutions were less than those of VGA, other solutions to this problem existed. RISC OS, for example, had pop-up application menus.
Of course, this doesn't stop people from bringing out their own versions of the now-extremely-worn-out Fitts' Law, even though pressing a button to open a menu right next to the pointer clearly undermines the alleged superiority of the "can't miss the top of the screen" global menu solution, especially in terms of assertions about what is "less effort" or "less thought" for the user.
Beyond the Mac Posted Apr 28, 2010 13:33 UTC (Wed) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] If people were really interested in improving application menus they would have gone over to pie menus long ago, which would have taken Fitts' Law right out of the equation. Instead, most anything that happens now (especially at Canonical) seems to be based on the idea that one does not need to do one's own usability testing if one can get Apple Inc. to do it for one for free.
Beyond the Mac Posted Apr 28, 2010 14:15 UTC (Wed) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
>If people were really interested in improving application menus they would have gone over to pie menus long ago
By all the Gods I hope this never comes to pass.
Pie menus are about as usable as being punched repeatedly in the face.
Beyond the Mac Posted Apr 28, 2010 15:27 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] Pie menus are about as usable as being punched repeatedly in the face.Has this been experimentally tested? And can I pre-emptively decline to participate in any forthcoming test? I already have neckache and all that craning my neck around to figure out what different parts of the pie are meant to do would make it so much worse. (The punching in the face wouldn't help matters, either.)
Beyond the Mac Posted Apr 28, 2010 14:31 UTC (Wed) by michaeljt (subscriber, #39183) [Link] > Instead, most anything that happens now (especially at Canonical) seems to be based on the idea that one does not need to do one's own usability testing if one can get Apple Inc. to do it for one for free.That is a wonderfully charitable way of putting it. On the other hand I am all in favour of having the option of Apple-style menus. It fits in well with the tradition of letting users choose what is best for them, not to mention that it will encourage flexible GUI coding :)
Beyond the Mac Posted Apr 28, 2010 14:43 UTC (Wed) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link]
You're not actually undermining Fitts's law, you're sort of rephrasing and restating part of it. Fitts's law is basically that closer targets are easier to hit than farther targets and bigger targets are easier than smaller targets. These things are likely to remain true for some time.
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 17:27 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
Here's the one thing that strikes me as odd.
Shuttleworth seems to be intent on not supporting touch-centric devices with the UNE interface. Like its a specific not designed for usage case.
That seems really short sighted to me for an interface meant to fill the space where netbooks live. The design decision to require a key press our a mouse over to make the application menu show up in the global bar...is going to be very very bad for touch-centric devices.
Now sure...it will work if you have a keyboard and a mouse/trackpad..but it seems like a very narrow set of design decisions given that the netbook space is gaining touch screen support. We know that touch-centric netbook/smartbook small form factors with detachable/hidable keyboards small are out there or coming and are going to compete in the same space as clamshell netbooks.
The design decision to require a mouse or a keyboard really seems at odds at where the device space is headed.
Compare that design decision with Moblin or Maemo or Meego...
Maemo had a global menu bar concept...with a drop-down application menu that works just fine with the touch-centric N810 and the N900
Meego... as stated that touch-centric is on their roadmap.
I just don't get the point of making design decisions for the UNE interface which aren't compatible with touch at this point. It just seems potentially short-sighted and limiting.
-jef
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 28, 2010 22:11 UTC (Wed) by wmf (guest, #33791) [Link]
Developing a single UI to support touch or mouse/keyboard sounds difficult. Meego has separate UIs for netbooks and phones, so it's effectively two different OSes (reminds me of S60 vs. UIQ).
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 29, 2010 0:18 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
Did I mention phones?
No I'm talking about touch-centric devices that sit inside the existing boundaries of the netbook form factor. Smartbooks and netbooks with touch screens with either detachable or hidable keyboards. You don't have to be a phone to be touch-centric... you don't have to be a pure "tablet" to be touch-centric. Netbooks can be touch-centric too. And then there's crap like the Eee PC Touch T91SA which straddles the netbook and tablet category already. There are going to be a lot of these things.
Meego's netbook interface... the _desktop_ ui... is going to work with touch-centric devices with screen proportions the size of typical netbooks just fine and dandy. The UNE interface as descirbed by Shuttleworth won't. You take the Eee PC Touch T91SA and use it in netbook mode... the UNE interface design makes some sense. You spin that sucker around and use it in tablet mode and it doesn't.. not when you need to use mouse-overs our hot keys to get to application menus.
-jef
Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition Posted Apr 29, 2010 10:16 UTC (Thu) by pivot (guest, #588) [Link]
I'd like to have a single menu bar for the normal desktop version as well. It just removes clutter from the screen.
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