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MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

By Jake Edge
April 21, 2010

The Linux Foundation's Collaboration Summit (LFCS) is focused on, well, collaboration, so it is no surprise that a recent high-profile collaborative effort in the Linux world, MeeGo, had a strong presence at the conference. Both sides of the merger of Moblin and Maemo, Intel and Nokia, had representatives giving keynote speeches about MeeGo and how it intends to interact with the community. Since the project is hosted by the foundation, it makes sense that it would devote a good portion of LFCS—a day-long MeeGo track in addition to the keynotes—to the mobile distribution. The focus of both speakers was on developing MeeGo in the open and working closely with upstream projects, rather than targeting MeeGo itself.

Ari Jaaksi, Nokia's VP for Maemo devices and MeeGo operations, spoke first, which he saw as an advantage because Intel's Imad Sousou would be sure to correct anything he said "wrong". The goal of the MeeGo project is to "provide industry with an open platform" for various kinds of devices. Both companies have been working on mobile distributions, which means that they "integrate the same components multiple times", and that is "stupid", Jaaksi said. That is one of the main ideas behind the merger.

Nokia has been working with Linux and free software for a number of years, since 2002 or 2003, and that it has been a "learning exercise". It "made a lot of mistakes" but tried to work within the community by participating with many different projects. Its early realization that it needed to be part of the community, and not "just use the code", was important.

But the integration process, where the various components that made up Maemo were built and collected into a release, was not open to community involvement. That is something that will change for MeeGo: "We are going to build the MeeGo platform in the open". It is a "huge change" that is going on "right now, as I speak". The idea of doing that "may seem trivial" to LFCS attendees, he said, "but it is a big deal with us".

Sousou, who is the director of Intel's Open Source Technology Center, echoed that idea. Working in the open will make collaboration easier, but "you will see the messes, and we are OK with that". One of the keys to making that work will be to focus on the upstream projects, he said. It took Intel "some time to figure it out", but downstream projects must "contribute and use the open source model".

There are "hundreds" of Intel engineers working on MeeGo, Sousou said, but most of the work is not actually in MeeGo itself. "It's happening upstream", at kernel.org, freedesktop.org, and others. He doesn't want to see kernel patches, for example, submitted to MeeGo, "submit it upstream". It's all about "working with upstream and contributing upstream — there is nothing more".

Both speakers talked about governing MeeGo in the open, with steering committee meetings on IRC. Jaaksi notes that there is still some adjustment that Nokia needs to make. He gets email from other employees about seeing MeeGo roadmap plans on the Internet; they are worried about competitors getting that kind of formerly secret information. He tells them: "Yes, that's how we do things".

Jaaksi notes that Palm had gotten products out earlier than Nokia, "with our code", and that was "not their fault, [but] our fault" by being too slow to market. Google has also used Maemo code, and "we hope to use theirs". A concern is that MeeGo will give competitors an advantage, but he believes that it is the companies which participate in the project that will see the most benefit. That concern may not be relevant for most of the people in attendance, he said, but within Nokia, there is a question on how to differentiate itself.

Sousou listed oFono and ConnMan as two projects where the two companies had already worked together. For MeeGo, they complement each other well, Jaaksi said. Nokia brings experience working with mobile handsets, ARM, and the phone companies, while Intel has "so much knowledge about the Linux kernel". Both have good teams that "know how to work in open source and combine open source with business". Choosing the "best of breed" components from Moblin and Maemo—or elsewhere—for MeeGo is something that both speakers stressed—there is a general sense that the project is trying to avoid "turf wars".

But it's not just Intel and Nokia, as the MeeGo project is looking for more contributors, which is another thing that both speakers emphasized. Because of their close working relationship, it was relatively straightforward to merge Maemo and Moblin into one project. They didn't bring in other companies at the start, because, in Jaaksi's opinion, "it would have taken too much time" to get agreement with more companies. He said that MeeGo wants to "demonstrate that it is an open source project" that others can participate in. He listed multiple companies that have become involved since the MeeGo announcement, including hardware vendors, Linux distributors, embedded Linux vendors, and so on.

The two main participants have decided on a blueprint of the architecture, which includes Qt as a platform for application developers, but the design of the system is an "ongoing process that we invite people to participate in", Jaaksi said. "Now is the time to join MeeGo", he said, and there is much to be done, but there is little risk for others because they have made a commitment to do things in the open. Both stressed that there is a simple, open governance model.

But, as an audience member pointed out, there is a veto power that Intel and Nokia have over the project. The audience member wondered if a community can still be built around that veto. Jaaksi responded that things "will be fixed if we need to fix them" and that changes will be made for anything that becomes an obstacle. Currently, MeeGo is focused on getting more people involved and having "simple governance". Earlier in his talk, he said that the governance needed to stay out of the way to maintain the speed of development.

There are 200-300 participants in the IRC meetings, Sousou said, and anyone can get involved. "If you contribute, you can help make decisions", Jaaksi said, but MeeGo will "make some mistakes going forward".

The veto power for Nokia and Intel was one of the things that LFCS participants grumbled about in the "hallway track". There is concern that community input will be ignored. One area that is particularly sensitive is the choice of RPM as the mandatory package format for MeeGo-branded devices. Debian/Ubuntu-oriented developers felt slighted by that requirement, and there seems to be no room to change that decision, which gave rise to concerns about governance. Assuming it wants only one package format, there is no "good" choice for the project as either plausible choice would irritate some.

Beyond that, attendees seemed interested, some even excited, by the prospects of MeeGo. Some consolidation in the mobile Linux arena is to be welcomed. In the end, though, it will be the MeeGo devices that will largely decide its fate. While Moblin and Maemo are available, neither has gained the widespread device availability that Android is starting to enjoy. Most participants seemed to be taking a "wait and see" approach, with the sense that many will be watching developments fairly closely.


(Log in to post comments)

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 7:39 UTC (Thu) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link]

The article could bother mentioning what MeeGo and Maemo even is. Neither is that well-known.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 9:10 UTC (Thu) by njd27 (subscriber, #5770) [Link]

The LWN article is actually pretty good:

http://lwn.net/Articles/374612/

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 13:17 UTC (Thu) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

> The article could bother mentioning what MeeGo and Maemo even is.

My apologies. I did link the first occurrence of MeeGo to our article about the merger and mentioned that MeeGo was a mobile distribution a few sentences in. Sorry for any confusion.

jake

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 10:20 UTC (Thu) by yaneti (subscriber, #641) [Link]

All warm an fuzzy inside until Connman is mentioned. :/

Given networking is a subsystem with hooks, crannies and needs spanning from kernel to UI we are still in the unfortunate situation of duplicating work for a central component in that subsystem.

Maybe everyone with a stake here should have tried to use the Collaboration summit to.. you know... collaborate on this crucial part of the picture.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 12:01 UTC (Thu) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Bring on the devices. Please! And if possible, by more companies than just Nokia.

Android has dozens to offer, Meego has the N900 and then, well, nothing. The N900 is nice, but thick and sports a less than one work day battery life.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 18:20 UTC (Thu) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link]

Don't worry, they're coming. I would expect some products for Xmas 2010 or spring 2011.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 28, 2010 16:49 UTC (Wed) by daenzer (✭ supporter ✭, #7050) [Link]

> The N900 is nice, but thick and sports a less than one work day battery life.

That seems to vary greatly depending on the usage pattern. Mine is admittedly rather low intensity, but I normally only need to charge every 4-5 days.

The upcoming PR 1.2 firmware update also seems to fix a few bugs which could waste power, mostly due to superfluous CPU usage.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 28, 2010 16:57 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Interesting. Could you describe your usage pattern, please? So far, people have consistently reported battery life of less than a day.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 29, 2010 7:59 UTC (Thu) by klaasjan (guest, #5492) [Link]

My N900 needs to be charged between 1 and 2 days of use. That's with a few phone calls (I'm not talking for hours), and less than an hour of Internet usage (just checking some sites, reading LWN.net from the train ;).
Some features (VOIP among others) seem to drain the battery though, but it's more than a working day which is good enough for me.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 29, 2010 10:49 UTC (Thu) by daenzer (✭ supporter ✭, #7050) [Link]

Basically:

* 2G connection 24/7, but never used for internet access. Only very rare and short phone calls.
* WiFi connection at least 12h / day, with Jabber and Skype accounts active.
* Occasional SMS / instant messaging.
* Checking for and installing package updates every day.

From what I've read, the worst power wasters seem to be:

* Anything that keeps the CPU out of sleep / low power states for significant fractions of the time, e.g.
- badly programmed desktop widgets (I only have the calendar, conversations and OMWeather widgets on my home desktop) or generally apps
- playing videos or music, in particular with not yet well-optimized codecs such as Vorbis
- certain bugs, e.g. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6868
* 3G radio, in particular for internet access and in particular with some things like Mail for Exchange.

Hope this helps.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Jul 4, 2010 20:54 UTC (Sun) by oak (guest, #2786) [Link]

My guess would be that the issue is mainly Skype. Track your network usage with and without it. Network powersave timeouts are much longer with phone than with WLAN so even occasional network activity can keep the related radio HW constantly active.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 18:33 UTC (Thu) by slougi (subscriber, #58033) [Link]

It's a bit sad that the package format is such a big issue still. In the end, dpkg and rpm do pretty much the same thing.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 20:55 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

it's interesting that the people who use rpm seem to say this while the people who use dpkg tend to disagree.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 22:01 UTC (Thu) by Tet (subscriber, #5433) [Link]

Yes, they disagree quite vocally. But they never come up with any concrete examples apart from the supposed lack of post-install scripts, which RPM has had since the dawn of time (possibly even before dpkg for all I know), so I've no idea where that bit of FUD came from.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 22:46 UTC (Thu) by jmorris42 (subscriber, #2203) [Link]

> ..supposed lack of post-install scripts..

Slight misunderstanding I think. The .deb camp complains against the prohibition of post install scripts that are interactive in rpm, i.e. debconf. But without that iron rule automated updating isn't practical so it is hard to argue for the Debian Way on this one. Packages should be able to install without asking questions and they darned sure should be able to update without them. And since new dependencies tend to spring up in updated packages any update has the potential to install a previously uninstalled package.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 22, 2010 23:26 UTC (Thu) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

It's *really* nice to have the ability to prompt users.

And you can do noninteractive installs of deb packages, too, you just have to pass the proper "noninteractive" arguments to it. It's in fact quite practical.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 23, 2010 0:30 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

I totally disagree. I remember my Debian days... I would launch an apt-get update, head out for coffee, and come back to find an interactive prompt asking some totally inane question. Answer the dialog, watch the disk grind for a few minutes, come back 30 minutes later and another dialog is insulting everyone's intelligence. Repeat all afternoon. It's horrible.

No idea why Debian packagers want to chat so much. It's a bad idea to change the priority level to reduce the chattiness because now you're on a rarely-used code path -- you're going to find problems that not many other people encounter. Tried it. It's not worth the time.

I love that with Ubuntu I'm only occasionally asked about grub conffiles, and with Fedora I'm never bugged at all. I tell the computer to update, go away for 1/2 hour, and it's updated! Every time. Don't underestimate how wonderful this is.

Just my perspective. How nice that there are alternatives to make everyone happy.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 23, 2010 1:47 UTC (Fri) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

Perhaps your debian days were before debconf was made ubiquitous in Sarge in 2005? For the last few releases, it asks all the questions all up front. (*) And...Debian and Ubuntu use the same system...

(*): ...except for asking what to do about replacing files in you've modified that the package maintainer has also modified...it still asks those one-by-one in the middle of the install. I agree this is a pain in the ass. But you can also disable that, and do like Fedora does and tell it to always replace your configuration files (keeping a backup).

Furthermore, dropping the priority is *not* a terrible idea that never works: all it does is choose the default options.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 23, 2010 4:21 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

In Fedora, the conf files are not always replaced. It's a bit more complex than that. Refer to

http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~jw35/docs/rpm_config.html

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 23, 2010 18:33 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Yeah, it was probably around then. The problem was that some packagers chose defaults that no sane person would use. Nobody except me complained because nobody except me actually changed the priority.

IIUC, Ubuntu made an effort to cut the number of questions asked by their core packages to zero because it's more user friendly. Not sure if this was actually tracked anywhere but it did seem like Hoary asked fewer stupid questions than Woody.

MeeGo: open development and upstream involvement

Posted Apr 24, 2010 1:20 UTC (Sat) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

It is less of an issue since Debian folks will be working on packaging the MeeGo stack for Debian:

http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Debian_Packaging_wor...

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