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Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek)
InformationWeek reports from the kernel panel discussion at the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit. "Andrew Morton, a key aide to Linux lead developer Linus Torvalds and often referred to as the 'Colonel of the kernel,' put the issue equally bluntly: 'Yes, we're getting older, and we're getting more tired. I don't see people jumping with enthusiasm to work on things the way that I used to.'
But he added that meant the developers in the kernel process had gained deep knowledge of the code they're working with and are willing to tackle greater complexity in making additions."
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Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 16, 2010 13:07 UTC (Fri) by abadidea (guest, #62082) [Link]
They don't have tons of people jumping in with enthusiasm because of their *world famous* lack of civility and their general hostility to new developers, brushing everyone off as "bad coders" instead of "coders with potential" simply because they don't already have 10 to 20 years of OS development experience...
When I first started reading the LKML more than four years ago, I was astounded that anything could ever get done with all the verbal abuse and hostility being tossed around... and realized it only worked because it was the same fairly small core of guys who had all known each other for years. I lost all interest in ever *attempting* to become a Linux kernel developer after reading LKML for a while. It's open-source, but socially it's a closed ecosystem.
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 16, 2010 15:18 UTC (Fri) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470) [Link] >>> It's open-source, but socially it's a closed ecosystemI disagree. There is new blood in each release: Kernel 2.6.27 : 216 first contributors Kernel 2.6.28 : 252 first contributors Kernel 2.6.29 : 279 first contributors Kernel 2.6.30 : 256 first contributors Kernel 2.6.31 : 276 first contributors Kernel 2.6.32 : 294 first contributors Kernel 2.6.33 : 289 first contributors
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 16, 2010 18:47 UTC (Fri) by sharms (subscriber, #57357) [Link]
You are grossly misrepresenting those statistics, all of them are the number of contributors since 2.6.12-rc2, meaning it isn't increasing all that fantastically. That was released in 2005, meaning there are only 50 new contributors per year, and this does not account for developers no longer contributing.
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 16, 2010 20:29 UTC (Fri) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470) [Link] >>> You are grossly misrepresenting those statistics, all of them are the number of contributors since 2.6.12-rc2, meaning it isn't increasing all that fantasticallyI never said there is an increase. I just said that, according to these statistics, there is new blood in the linux development ecosystem >>> That was released in 2005, meaning there are only 50 new contributors per year, and this does not account for developers no longer contributing. Perhaps I'm dumb but I cannot understand how you compute this number (50 new contributors per year) ? For me you should sum all numbers of first time contributors (from 2.6.13 to 2.6.33) and divide by the number of years since the 2.6.13 release. Of course the result is just the "imput" view (turnover) and say nothing about the "output" view (developers no longer contributing).
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 17, 2010 12:31 UTC (Sat) by cowsandmilk (guest, #55475) [Link]
no, you're misunderstanding the numbers.
What it means is none of these people contributed to anything between 2.6.12-rc2 and the previous release, but are contributing to this release. So, for 2.6.33, it means, maybe they contributed to 2.6.11, but we don't have those records in git, so it is hard to find out. They definitely have not contributed since 2005.
You shouldn't take the number 289 and divide by 5. Your interpretation also wouldn't allow the number to go down (e.g. 294 to 289)... Instead, you must sum over releases and then divide and get a much larger number.
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 16, 2010 18:56 UTC (Fri) by abadidea (guest, #62082) [Link]
Yes, there are always new contributors (thankfully), but from what I've seen it's mostly drivers-- independent chunks that can be dropped in.
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 17, 2010 5:26 UTC (Sat) by linusw (subscriber, #40300) [Link]
I don't have that experience at all, I've been contributing small stuff for some years, only recently more substantial stuff, everyone I worked with has been friendly and helpful, and I don't really know any of them personally, one or two I acquinted at conferences perhaps.
Due to a confusion? Posted Apr 17, 2010 22:01 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] It appears from your username "linusw" that your first name is "Linus". Maybe everyone mistakes you with the other Linus, so they are eager to help you (while perhaps wondering about your inexperience). This doesn't speak much about a meritocracy which is ruled with such an iron fist.Just joking, folks. I am sure that kernel development has a lot of amiable developers, even if it presents a harsh front at lkml; linusw's experience is a useful counterpoint to the usual "people on lkml are mean" meme. (I just wanted to use the word "meme" if only once.)
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 18, 2010 3:56 UTC (Sun) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]
I don't agree either. I've posted a few small patches and they've met with consideration and thought, not mindless antagonism. They don't always get applied but they don't get flamed to a crisp, either. A lot of it depends on how you yourself go into the situation, I believe. If you have an optimistic attitude, don't pretend you know everything already, are willing to hear critiques and implement changes that make your code "fit better" with the kernel in the opinions of those that know it better than you, AND you have a thick-enough skin that you don't fly off the handle at any comment you perceive to be impugning your hacker cred, you'll have no problems on LKML.
Unless you try to mess around with VM. Just Don't Do It.
:-)
Linux Graybeards? Yes, But Also A Wisdom Circle (InformationWeek) Posted Apr 19, 2010 10:47 UTC (Mon) by berndp (guest, #52035) [Link]
Any link to such a case?
And you probably took everything too personal. "Communication" as such is complex enough in normal (read: FtF) conditions.
Discussing real technical problems via email is even worse. To reduce typing effort and (potential) misunderstandings, it is far better to avoid all kinds of conditionals (unless someone explicitly asks for it or it is some kind of brain storm): "I would do XXX" does not help anyone. Either just do it (and report what you did und the findings - even if you do not really understand them) or just do not write it - after all the above could be interpreted as another from of "you should do XXX" (which is not appropriate either).
Even more important is to write emails which are easy to read and understand (especially if the contents is complex). That implies that you do not simply quote everything and put 3 lines of blurb somewhere in. No one likes to scan through hundreds of lines to (perhaps?) find 3 lines of comment - which is (perhaps) irrelevant or uninteresting anyways.
For bug reports, it is important to report the facts (and not some personal opinion, expectation or wish - unless you explain it so that everyone can understand it). And if someone asks for more details, log output, ..., you better provide it - after all, you want the bug to be fixed and you are the one who can actually observe it (especially if others cannot reproduce the bug - for whatever reason).
Last but not least there far too many people out there who think that just throwing "ideas", "proposals" or even requests on LKML lead to immediately implemented features for free.
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