> They might want an index (because of faster seeking), but do not
> require it. For example, playing an index-less MKV in MPC-HC will
> result in no index being created until you seek.
OK, using HPC as an example, you won't be able to seek in a
canned stream unless MPC downloads the whole things first and
builds an index. So, you're sort of answering a different
question, but it still makes my point.
> Bottom line is that index in Matroska is completely optional and
> thus if you want to support Matroska you need to support
> index-less Matroska files too.
You've completely missed what I'm trying to say. That point is
that we avoided having 100 optional features in Ogg for a reason.
Given that most of the Matroska spec is optional, it's a complete
guess as to what will be deployed and what won't, and plenty of
demuxers aren't even implementing the mandatory parts. I believe it
is fair to mention this because the spec is something of a kitchen
sink. It's huge. So much so that implementation in the real world
is a free-for-all. Is anyone contacting these non-compliant Matroska
implementations? This is something Xiph does with Ogg.
> OGG might have more support within certain streaming solutions
> because of the amount of OGG Vorbis audio streams, but how many
> of these support streaming Theora video in OGG as well?
Nearly all of them. Caertainly all the ones I can think of right now.
> Are you seriously asking this? From the top of my head:
> * Native MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 support
> * Native MPEG-4 ASP support
> * Native AAC support
> * Native AC3 support
You do understand that we do not and will not promote or advocate any
encumbered codecs as a policy that is coded into our charter, correct?
Strictly speaking, we're not allowed to.
I also don't think it's useful to try to convince Web vendors to
support unencumbered media by advertising your support for encumbered
> * Native SRT support
> * Native ASS support
> * Standard chapter support
> * Advanced chapter magic (like ordered chapters and segment linking)
Are you seriously suggesting Ogg can't do this? Or perhaps more
relvantly, suggesting that having multiple ways to do something is
inherently superior to having one way everyone agrees on?
There is technical and usability value to vertical integration.
Just ask Apple.
> In terms of hardware support, advanced chapter magic tends to be
> mostly unsupported (though usually resulting simply in things
> like external segments not playing while the rest of the file
> plays fine), second being ASS. Some players, like the Popcorn
> Hour, offer limited ASS support though. No hardware player
> supports it fully though.
We could add a whole bunch of stuff that's only marginally
supported in the real world to our spec too. I think the fact
that we don't is an asset, not a liability.
> Yeah. Supporting files people actually make and use, instead of
> forcing them to convert their files just to be web-compatible and
> nothing else.
Yeah, that totally sunk YouTube. No one I know uses it.
But seriously, you're being thoroughly disingenuous. "And
nothing else". In what way is Ogg only deployed on the web?
I have a nice library of Ogg movies. Naturally, I rip my own DVDs to
Ogg. I'm starting to produce my own vids in Ogg. They play in all my
software players, under Linux, MacOSX and Windows. They also play in
all my browsers. They play on my phone.
Matroska has support in some DVD players, this is true... assuming you
use codecs that those players actually have available. Here's another
example of "100 ways to do something" doesn't mean any of those ways
actually work in practice. It would be like 90% of Perl's features
And since you're advocating encumbered codecs anyway... how is using
Matroska different from just using the MP4 container or FLV? They have
far wider deployment than Matroska.
Ogg is offering a complete, integrated, fully unencumbered media stack.
There's value in 'integrated' and 'fully unencumbered' being together in
one place. Matroska does not offer that.
> That nothing else part is pretty notable
You are living with your head in the sand.
> Also, I have a question: Is HTML5 video with Theora in OGG used
> anywhere for live streaming?
Yes. For example, RedHat is using it internally for video
conferencing meetings between international offices.
> Also, I have to say that in discussions like this, I'd wish that
> you people refrain from using comments like "OGG is better for
> streaming than Matroska", because it's very misleading.
> While technically speaking it might have some merit to it, it
> becomes false advertising when your average user confuses it to
> YouTube-like progressive downloading that is nowadays
> dubbed "streaming", where OGG provides absolutely no benefit over
...so you're saying "sure it might be true, but don't do it
because I don't like it"?
Ignoring everything else, Ogg streaming has one very obvious,
very visible benefit for users: It actually exists.
[Also, please, 'Ogg' is not an acronym. It's a proper name. No
allcaps :-) I'd kinda hoped you'd pick up the hint and I wouldn't
have to say anything because I always feel like a prick when I
point it out...]