Yes... shuttleworth has repeatedly talked about how both distributors and upstream projects would benefit from this. He's also alluded to private discussions where unnamed upstream developers supported the idea. He's theorized that this is going to help repartition available manpower and encourage upstream projects into modifying their own release policies.
So since he's talking about it again...I'm asking again. What do critical upstream project development teams( like the kernel developers, like the gcc developers) think about this idea? Do they think wide scale 2 year cadence would be beneficial?
I am purposely making no judgements as to the idea. I simply want to know what critical upstream projects think. And I'm asking for verifiable public discussions where named upstream developer participants openly discuss the merits of the idea.
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 16, 2010 3:20 UTC (Tue) by Duncan (guest, #6647)
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Well, the kernel's general response on this should be reasonably well
known to regular LWN readers, at least regular kernel page readers, with a
bit of thought.
It's basically not affecting the general kernel development track much,
and the support as it is depends greatly on volunteers for the task, no
volunteers, no support, but in practice, that's what the long-term-stable-
kernel projects are supporting. Development in the general mainline
continues as normal, with the exception being that when a kernel community
member declares their intent to do a long term stable series for a
particular release, various big kernel projects might be sped up slightly
to target it, if they'd normally try to hit the next release, or delayed a
release if they're interim solutions not considered suitable for long term
support.
The idea of mainline supported long-term-stable kernels is reasonably new
as these things go, and there's only been two of them. I don't claim to
have followed the details even here at LWN, so part of this may be wrong,
but based on my takeaway from mostly LWN, the first one (2.6.16, IIRC)
came about sort of accidentally, as IIRC Red Hat realized toward the end
of the normal kernel stable period that they'd be maintaining it long term
for their own enterprise release anyway, and, as is common for them,
decided to play well with upstream, making it an official upstream
supported long-term-stable kernel, instead of a Red-Hat-Only kernel.
A new one was recently announced, tho I've not tracked it well enough to
be able to tell you the release number. This was a new volunteer for long
term maintainer for that kernel, and thus, given the informality with
which these things seem to be done in the kernel community, a slightly
different take on what would qualify for inclusion.
The important part in regard to our current context, however, is that I
believe multiple enterprise distributions have announced that they are
basing their upcoming releases around this kernel, /because/ it's an
official long-term-stable kernel, and, reading between the lines, there
was in fact some deliberate cooperation between them and the general
kernel community in terms of deciding which release it'd be and finding
someone to volunteer. IOW, unlike the first one which seemed to come
together informally based on someone taking the lead, this time around
there's some deliberate cooperation between distributions and coordination
with the larger kernel community toward that end, involved.
A logical projection into the future would be that #3 long-term-stable-
kernel release will happen in 2-3 years, and be even /more/ coordinated,
possibly even to the level of formal long-term-stable-kernel (LTSK)
guidelines being drawn up. Presumably the cycle will continue every 2-3
years after that, until something happens to dramatically change the
general kernel development pattern thus necessitating a change in the
LTSKs, or something equally big happens to the way enterprise
distributions and their kernels are developed, quite apart from the
regular kernel release cycle.
Of course, if LTSK maintainer volunteers fail to appear, that'd cut the
cycle short as well, but given the money involved in enterprise
distributions, I expect that volunteers (from the kernel project
perspective) will appear, even as they are paid employees of either some
enterprise distribution or another company (like Google), or possibly
taken on as a Linux Foundation Fellowship arrangement (thereby being more
formally distribution/corporation independent), for the support period.
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 16, 2010 6:11 UTC (Tue) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470)
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I think there is three kernels with a long time support: 2.6.16 (support ended now), 2.6.27 and now 2.6.32.
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 16, 2010 11:36 UTC (Tue) by forlwn (guest, #63934)
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As a new and interested reader about all things related to FOSS, this is one of the most interesting and didactic comments I've had the pleasure to read, focusing the explaining of the facts, as they happened, without mixing distractive subjective evaluations of value, and written in a way that allow it's easy understanding by no technical readers, interested to understand what are the implications that Shuttleworth's proposition could pose, in this case at the specifics of the Linux Kernel system. Would be good that the future developments will follow the logic, as presented by Mr.Duncan, and #3 LTSK release will be "even /more/ coordinated". Lets hope so, and also that other reasonable solutions will be possible to find at different upstream fields.
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 16, 2010 20:54 UTC (Tue) by nevyn (subscriber, #33129)
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> The important part in regard to our current context, however, is that I
> believe multiple enterprise distributions have announced that they are
> basing their upcoming releases around this kernel, /because/ it's an
> official long-term-stable kernel
My understanding is different. From what I understood both the new versions of Ubuntu-LTS and RHEL were on (semi-)timed schedules that didn't take the upstream kernel into account.
> reading between the lines, there
> was in fact some deliberate cooperation between them and the general
> kernel community in terms of deciding which release it'd be and finding
> someone to volunteer.
Do you have any references? Again my understanding was that RH/Canonical both made decisions which had little to do with upstream, and happened to choose the same base kernel version ... and because of that an upstream volunteered to provide ongoing stability work.
Also last time I looked, both Canonical and RH had "significant" patchsets over their base version. So how similar the kernels with "the same version" will actually be...
(As always, speaking for myself)
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 16, 2010 21:37 UTC (Tue) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
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The only reference I have that is publicly archived is GKH's announcement about the 2.6.32 maintainership.
"I'd like to announce that the 2.6.32-stable tree is also going to be
maintained as a "long-term" stable release, living for 2-3 years, like
the 2.6.27 kernel is. This is because a number (i.e. more than 2) Linux
distributions are basing their "enterprise" releases on this kernel
version, and it will make their lives easier if I keep it alive.
Note, the viability of me keeping this tree alive for such a length of
time relies on the developers working for those distros to keep me
informed of patches that need to be backported and applied to it.
Without their help, I will have no problem in stopping the maintenance
of the tree."
---
Sounds to me like there was some private discussion between GDK and employees from at least two other vendor about their intention to ship 2.26.32, before it was marked as stable. But no publicly archived discussion to the effect as far as I know.
I would humbly suggest that it would be worthwhile to check in on how vendors are doing in holding up their end by looking at the breakdown of patch submissions into this tree on a quarterly accumulative basis over the next couple of years. I believe someone 'round these parts has the scripts to do that sort of thing for kernel tree. The first round of patch review is underway for 2.26.32.10 if I'm reading the lkml archive correctly I believe and all the expected vendors are represented.
-jef
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 17, 2010 13:54 UTC (Wed) by broonie (subscriber, #7078)
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There was some hallway discussion about this prior to the decisions being taken about which kernels to release with involving at least some of the parties involved.
LTS kernel projects and Shuttleworth's cadence proposition
Posted Mar 18, 2010 5:18 UTC (Thu) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link]
This was initially discussed (so far as I know) between Debian and Ubuntu kernel maintainers and release managers at the Linux Plumbers Conference. I also called a BoF for distributors, which Greg K-H attended, where we discussed stable series maintenance.
At that time it was clear that 2.6.32 would be out at about the right time for Ubuntu's next release and Debian's planned freeze date. It was also rumoured that RHEL 6 would use 2.6.32, which has turned out to be correct. So the Debian and Ubuntu developers agreed that would be the one to go for.
Recently I've seen that SLES 11 SP1 will update the kernel from 2.6.27 to .32. This surprised me, but presumably the SUSE/Novell kernel maintainers (headed by Greg K-H, I believe) decided that the benefit of sharing a common version with the other 3 distributions outweighed the cost.
Shuttleworth: 2 year cadence for major releases: some progress
Posted Mar 18, 2010 14:26 UTC (Thu) by ccurtis (guest, #49713)
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Not wanting to speak on anyone's behalf, but it seems like you're twisting things somewhat. Kernel, gcc, and libc developers have a reputation as being something of a cantankerous bunch and have their own release schedules. I think Mark's target has more of a user focus -- GNOME, KDE, etc.
The desktop environments have talked about regular releases, and the concept is essentially the same: If you want your app to be part of DE version X, you have a fixed ship date to work towards. Similarly for distros, if you want your DE shipped by packagers, you know what the release date is. The more distros that ship together the more real this date becomes. (And Mark has said he'll change Ubuntu's release dates if others will agree on a fixed one.)
Now, these DE/Distro release dates by necessity can't be the same - that's the not issue. New stuff takes time to stabilize and integrate. Distros can differentiate based on what they ship - stable or shiny, for instance. And "boutique" distros will still exist (perhaps even thrive) in this environment.
I clearly think it's a good idea, and don't think it contributes to the "homogenization" of Linux -- from the user level. In one sense it can make for a more uniform platform (and this is a good thing (ie: LSB)) but in another it forces distros to be more innovative to differentiate their products. It seems a win-win to me.