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Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

PCWorld reports on a speech given by Microsoft's Vice President for Trustworthy Computing, Scott Charney, at the RSA security conference in San Francisco. In it, he suggests that a tax of some sort might be just the way to pay for cleaning up systems that are infected with viruses and other malware. "So who would foot the bill? 'Maybe markets will make it work,' Charney said. But an Internet usage tax might be the way to go. 'You could say it's a public safety issue and do it with general taxation,' he said."
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Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 16:36 UTC (Thu) by jgjf (guest, #26728) [Link]

Ah - new meaning to the term "Microsoft Tax"!

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 17:19 UTC (Thu) by beoba (guest, #16942) [Link]

Maybe the tax would be proportional to the risk that the user's machine would get infected, given their choice of say, OS.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 17:21 UTC (Thu) by beoba (guest, #16942) [Link]

Actually, why tax the user at all? Why not tax the vendor that made the vulnerability possible in the first place?

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 17:38 UTC (Thu) by pranith (subscriber, #53092) [Link]

How exactly can they tax the vendor if the vendor was using third party code? May be they should tax the author of the code, or the vendor sponsoring the code to be written.

Follow the money

Posted Mar 5, 2010 7:19 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

It might actually be a good idea if the OS vendor foots the bill. Why should anyone (outside the vendor) care about who has authored the code? It might just work like VAT in Europe: the vendor pays the tax, and then can pass it along to upstream authors.

Let's remove the existing tax first!

Posted Mar 5, 2010 15:08 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

Yes, it's great how such people refer to "the markets" in an attempt to look like friends of true capitalism and the "free market", while doing everything in their power to distort various markets - like the one for operating systems - and undermine the level of choice for anyone wanting to spend any money. To such people "the markets" are things you can game in order to turn them into guaranteed tax-like revenue streams. The majority of computers bought at retail are already imposing a tax on their purchasers, collectable by Microsoft. Is the intention now for Microsoft to "double dip" and tax those people on something they had no control over acquiring in the first place?

I note that some people who contribute to LWN's discussions are of the opinion that less regulation is better. Would it not be better to more effectively regulate the retail computing market in order to avoid baroque regulatory gymnastics like those the "browser chooser" fiasco has demonstrated? By sorting such problems out at the root, everyone can then avoid dealing with the otherwise inevitable repeated complaints by companies trying to do business in a distorted market environment.

Yes, it's surely time to remove the Microsoft tax. Then random Microsoft spokespeople can share their views about taxation without the whole thing seeming like a cruel joke.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 16:51 UTC (Thu) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link]

Sounds like "adding insult to injury" just got itself a new canonical text-book example.

It's just that the fact this person has the title of Microsoft's Vice President for Trustworthy Computing makes the joke sort of painful in a recursive way.

>'Maybe markets will make it work'

They probably would, provided some third party which shall remained unnamed would let them.

>You could say it's a public safety issue and do it with general taxation

One could also say it's the fault of the moon-people and fire nukes at the moon to teach them a lesson and make them stop.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 18:02 UTC (Thu) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link]

If this applied _only_ to the people whose computers were actually
demonstrated to be infected, this might be a good idea. Otherwise it is just
cost shifting from the irresponsible to the responsible, and indeed from
Microsoft to the rest of the software industry.

Such charges should only apply to to customers presently infected with
malware that is generating malicious or unsolicited outbound traffic. On
report by multiple independent third party recipients of such traffic, ISPs
could be required to verify the problem (by DPI), and charge the user an
extra $20 or $30/month until the problem is resolved.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 18:12 UTC (Thu) by dmadsen (guest, #14859) [Link]

This actually could be interesting. I can see where end users would continue to get frustrated as their machines keep getting infected and their Internet bill would go up. Sooner or later, they'd ask the question "I'm sick and tired of this, what do I need to do so I don't get any more infections?", and eventually they'd be off of Windows.

Yep, sounds like the market in action alright!

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 19:20 UTC (Thu) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link]

Or at least they could upgrade to a more modern, less vulnerable version...

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 21:45 UTC (Thu) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]

Seriously. I've never once had a virus on a Windows machine in over 10
years.

Put a bunch of fucking idiots on Linux and it's going to get just as many
viruses. Nothing about Linux stops people from downloading random
"Installer Scripts" (or random RPMs or random DEBs) and executing them.

The appliance model of most distros tries to stop that but fails because
ultimately the appliance model is hostile to real-world users. Most people
want at least a few pieces of software that is not packaged by their distro
(or at least not packages in a recent enough version) and they must resort
to third-party packages or installers.

The only way to stop stupid people from damaging their systems is to stop
letting stupid people do anything remotely interesting or useful with the
system.

It's no different than driving. You can't design a car that is incapable
of being crashed; the only thing you can possibly do is ban anyone who
can't prove themselves truly capable of the task from getting behind the
wheel (which in theory a driving test is supposed to do, but fails horribly
at, because the tests are short and easy and don't generally involve
stressful or distracting situations).

Linux is safer because the average user doesn't use Linux, because the
average user actually wants the computer to just work and not require them
to get a PhD in Excessively Complex Interfaces for Things Regular People Do
With Computers That the CS Nerds Who Develop Linux Don't Do Because They're
Not Representative of Normal Folks. The average user actually _really
wants to install random apps from the Web_ because that's where you find
cool stuff and not Word Clone 3.0 or Math Engine App or
LibOnlyDevelopersUseThisBecauseItsAFreakingLibraryNotAnApplication and so
on. They don't want KDEGeneaologyApp, they want GeneologyPro that their
Grandma is using because that's what their Grandma is using. They want
Cool Commercial Game because for a very large number of users those games
are the _only fucking reason they own a computer at all_... while the Linux
nerds don't play any games because they're not normal people and they
actually have fun writing code instead of shooting zombies with friends
online. There's nothing wrong with that -- nothing says you have to have
fun shooting zombies and that you can't have fun writing code. But only a
moron thinks that just because they don't want to shoot zombies with
friends online in a quality game that actually handles lag and voice chat
and match making and has cooperative and versus modes and has graphics
where the zombies look like zombies (yes, that's L4D I'm talking about)
that the game industry as a whole is somehow irrelevant despite being
mostly recession proof and having grown to the same size and budget levels
as Hollywood.

And then there's people like me who (despite being hardcore Linux users for
years) have their fun writing games for friends to shoot zombies online...
which pretty much means not writing for Linux because the graphics drivers
suck and the audio driver interface changes every 2 years and there's no
way to develop any kind of remotely useful installer that doesn't have to
be rewritten and redeployed every 6 months. Oh, and the Linux game userbase
has an even higher percentage of pirates than Windows and jhas a teensy
fraction of gamers as a whole, as Loki's sales vs usage figures of the
original Quake 3 for Linux box will show you; they couldn't even sell
50,000 copies but a couple hundred thousand people were playing Quake 3 on
Linux based on server stats. Go go asshole Linux users who think Freedom
means getting everything for free just because they want it.

Until Linux makes it easy for people to actually install the apps they
actually want -- Free or non-Free -- with no bullcrap, it's going to be
unpopular with Regular Folk on a desktop machine. Unfortunately, as soon
as Linux does that in order to become a popular desktop OS, it's going to
be just as easy and likely to get a virus on Linux as it is on Windows.

Pretty much a textbook case of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 21:59 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Mmm... I love the smell of fresh astroturf....

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 22:10 UTC (Thu) by michaeljt (subscriber, #39183) [Link]

Maybe he just needed to let out a lot of steam? After you remove the swear-words and such
like I think some of his points are valid. (Don't know much about modern computer games
though, so I can't really comment on that.)

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 22:42 UTC (Thu) by dbruce (subscriber, #57948) [Link]

"Maybe he just needed to let out a lot of steam? After you remove the swear-words and such
like I think some of his points are valid. (Don't know much about modern computer games
though, so I can't really comment on that.)"

Except that most _really_ "regular people" (that is, not hard-core gamers or other "superusers") really don't want to install software from the net. In fact most users never install anything at all - they just use whatever came with the machine to surf the web and use email.

Linux is fine for geeks and for the tech-illiterate, but Windows "power users" seem to get frustrated with it.

Power users

Posted Mar 6, 2010 8:57 UTC (Sat) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link]

And conversely, I get very frustrated when going back to Windows! Question of habits I suppose. Only exception: 3D games!

That's how you lie with truth

Posted Mar 6, 2010 13:01 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

In fact most users never install anything at all - they just use whatever came with the machine to surf the web and use email.

This is truth, of course. But there are another truth:

Most (almost all) systems ends up with programs beyond what come with their machine.

And yet another:

Most users sooner or later will have programs beyond what their distribution offers.

It does not really matter if people want to install programs or not. It does not matter if they install programs themselves or someone does that for them. What does matter is the fact that programs are getting installed and that they come from random web sites. And then you go back to elanthis story. I'm yet to see computer without some random stuff installed after being used for year or so - even if person who owns the computer claims he or she never installed anything I'm finding random archivers, web browsers and so on installed by "someone".

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 23:17 UTC (Thu) by NightMonkey (subscriber, #23051) [Link]

Did he have to let the steam out on LWN? I don't think I can accept his hyperbolic and offensive opinion that I'm not a "normal" person just because I use Linux. And the "guilt by association" that Linux users are more prone to pirating is just flamebait. I buy games. I'm a Linux user. I'm "normal", I think.

And Mac OS X's user base is a good counterargument to his supposition that if it gets popular, an OS gets proportionally infested with malware. Not so far. Possible? Yes. Examples? None.

It's just assertions, not much fact there.

Linux is designed for network? Bah.

Posted Mar 6, 2010 13:10 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Also, although bolted on, the simplicity of the Unix design enabled it to be done relatively easily, and then mature.

But the security of Unix (and then Linux) depends on the capable administrator first and foremost! This is not what you want for "Joe Average"!

Operating Systems for "Joe Average" are starting to emerge (Nokia's Symbian, Palm's WebOS, Google's Android and ChromeOS), but they are not suitable for PC yet (and may not be ever suitable - time will tell) so Windows remains uncontested...

Linux is designed for network? Bah.

Posted Mar 6, 2010 22:34 UTC (Sat) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link]

But the security of Unix (and then Linux) depends on the capable administrator first and foremost! This is not what you want for "Joe Average"!

Distributors fill the role of a "capable administrator" in widely-used Linux distributions. All Joe Average need to do is to use the GUI tools for the facets of system administration that cannot ship pre-configured.

The Fedora privilege escalation argument was in part about "Fedora distribution as administrator" undermining the possibility of a meaningful "real person as administrator".

Yup - and this is where scalability issues come from

Posted Mar 17, 2010 15:41 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Distributors do the work of capable administrator and as long as users only does things like installation of programs via this "administrator" everything is just fine. Unfortunately this model does not scale: it was bad in old days where you needed to beg for days till sysadmin finally allowed you to install something on "central Solaris server" but with "Joe Average" it just does not work: they invariably bypass administrator sooner or later and then everything falls apart.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 4:55 UTC (Fri) by jjs (guest, #10315) [Link]

Apache.

Majority of the web servers run apache (http://www.netcraft.com). Yet, IIS is/was the major web server cracked.

So much for the "popularity" view.

Linux BY DESIGN is a more secure operating system. Because that design came from a network operating system (Unix). And things like SELinux and the open source development model make it even stronger.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 9:25 UTC (Fri) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link]

Initial Unix was not networked at all. Multi-terminal and multi-user, yes. But Berkeley networking subsystem is clearly a later bolt-on. Plan9 is what really designed with networking in mind. But now it is even less usable for the general public than Linux.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 11:58 UTC (Fri) by jjs (guest, #10315) [Link]

Agreed it started out multiuser/multiterminal (which in itself required security), but has been networked for longer than Windows (in any version) has been around. Also, although bolted on, the simplicity of the Unix design enabled it to be done relatively easily, and then mature.

In terms of the original poster's "installing apps from the web"
1. From Debian I have over 18,000 packages to choose from.
2. My main problem with converting others to Linux is not "they want to install packages from the web" it's the "I want to install MS Office, AutoCAD, [insert Windows package here]." When I show them Openoffice.org, either they adapt, or I get the "It's not MS Office, I'll have to relearn it." (of course, most of them don't complain that they have to relearn MS Office every few years as MS changes the program - that's still "MS Office.").

People who can learn to change driving from right to left (going between countries), the new placement of controls on the auto (which shift with each make/model for wipers, radio, headlights, etc), can't relearn a pull-down menu.

But they still complain about Windows, as long as they don't have to change. Which is why I now tell folks "I don't do Windows."

Ah yes, the car analogy

Posted Mar 5, 2010 7:55 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

You can't design a car that is incapable of being crashed

Solved.

Ah yes, the car analogy

Posted Mar 6, 2010 13:38 UTC (Sat) by dmk (subscriber, #50141) [Link]

;) .. you mean probably solved in 20-50 years?

Ah yes, the car analogy

Posted Mar 6, 2010 15:53 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Yeah, they'll be fusion-powered. :)

TLDR

Posted Mar 11, 2010 8:05 UTC (Thu) by dion (subscriber, #2764) [Link]

Two points though:
1) Installing from repositories rather than from random .ru sites brings Linux users three things that they didn't have as windows users:

a) A massive majority of a normal users software will be safe.
b) Those few pieces of software that *need* to get an unsafe install
will likely be some what complex, special things, that are not too
easy to fake for a malware vendor.
c) Because unsafe installations happen so rarely the user might have some
attention to spare when doing it that it ends up being done right.

2) Locking down machines is what ChromeOS is all about and I'm not so sure it will fail, there's a *huge* amount of people who never needs anything else.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 13, 2010 4:07 UTC (Sat) by mrgoblin (subscriber, #44275) [Link]

"Oh, and the Linux game userbase
has an even higher percentage of pirates than Windows and jhas a teensy
fraction of gamers as a whole, as Loki's sales vs usage figures of the
original Quake 3 for Linux box will show you; they couldn't even sell
50,000 copies but a couple hundred thousand people were playing Quake 3 on
Linux based on server stats. Go go asshole Linux users who think Freedom
means getting everything for free just because they want it."

Or like me they purchased 3 legal copies for windows but moved to Linux shortly after so just grabbed the native binaries and legally ran it.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 18:11 UTC (Thu) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link]

Here's an idea: maybe Microsoft should do something to make their OS less infectable!

Or is that just crazy talk?

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 19:29 UTC (Thu) by PO8 (guest, #41661) [Link]

Probably just crazy talk.

There's an ROC curve connecting ease-of-use and security. Right now, Microsoft has every reason to continue to operate way, way far up on the ease-of-use side of that curve. The only way they will change is if market conditions change such that they can make more money quicker by being secure. I don't see anything in the short term that will make that happen. Indeed, recent (arguably misguided) attempts in Vista to make the user participate a bit more in the security model were heavily punished in the marketplace. Image how Microsoft users would howl and Microsoft competitors would laugh if Microsoft tried to back-fit a real security model into Windows.

Apple showed us how you do this; rather than trying to wedge a security model into an OS not designed for it, you get to start over and build (or borrow) a secure OS. A lot of apps will break, and a lot of users will complain bitterly. After a while, everyone will forget it ever happened.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 23:51 UTC (Thu) by JoeF (guest, #4486) [Link]

Apple showed us how you do this; rather than trying to wedge a security model into an OS not designed for it, you get to start over and build (or borrow) a secure OS. A lot of apps will break, and a lot of users will complain bitterly. After a while, everyone will forget it ever happened.

That would indeed be the only way to fix Windows. Start from scratch and design security in instead of making it an afterthought. All the improvements MS has made are just band aids. The forces that want backwards compatibility are strong at MS, though, so I don't think that there will ever be a clean break.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 0:01 UTC (Fri) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]

Yours is a common sentiment, but it hasn't been true in over a decade. Modern Windows systems are as architecturally secure as you can ask for. The NT kernel has user separation, privilege separation, secure user elevation, and so on. In some ways, their ACL-based permission system is even more comprehensive than our unix-derived one. In Windows, you can attach a security descriptor to practically anything.

The problem with Windows is developer culture inside and outside of Microsoft, and that has been improving rapidly largely as a result of Microsoft placing security ahead of strict backwards compatibility. Vista and Windows 7 are a testament to that.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 5:49 UTC (Fri) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link]

The NT kernel has user separation, privilege separation, secure user elevation, and so on. In some ways, their ACL-based permission system is even more comprehensive than our unix-derived one. In Windows, you can attach a security descriptor to practically anything.

Absolutely. Microsoft developed a state of the art security architecture, and then riddled it with so many holes (in the name of compatibility and convenience) that it was essentially a dead letter until very recently. Auto-running executables from inserted CDs is an excellent example. On the other hand, the most impressive security on Windows XP is that which prevents administrators from terminating malicious processes. It requires serious privilege separation to protect a system from its own administrators.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 19:32 UTC (Thu) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

To be fair, Microsoft has made a lot of improvements in their OS, security-wise. But it's a long process and it hasn't been perfect.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 4, 2010 23:09 UTC (Thu) by jreiser (subscriber, #11027) [Link]

Microsoft has made a lot of improvements in their OS, security-wise

Where are the measurements that show how much benefit has been achieved?

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 1:19 UTC (Fri) by emk (guest, #1128) [Link]

Here's a measurement for you. :-)

Back in 2003 or 2004, I took a 15 mile drive along a back road in
Vermont. Along the way, I found several tiny computer stores. One was
run out of a one-room storefront; another was run out of somebody's
barn.

All these stores theoretically sold merchandise, but the selection was both
tiny and dubious: Chinese UPSs with no brand names(!), funny-looking
mice, and old monitors, for example.

I asked one of the store owners where his income came from. He said that
about 98% of his income came from spyware removal, and the other 2%
from hardware and teaching people how to use eBay.

Shortly thereafter, Microsoft released Windows XP SP2, and within a year,
every single one of these little computer stores had gone out of business.
Around the same time, several people with chronically infected Windows
machines stopped getting constant spyware infections.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 9, 2010 12:48 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

I am aware of people who make a living out of fixing Windows systems, so it's still very much a going concern for entrepreneurs.

From your observations, it's quite possible to deduce that people in Vermont switched to Linux, possibly because Windows XP SP2 also caused a bunch of backwards compatibility issues and may well have introduced various "verification features" that locked them out of Microsoft's update system.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 11:41 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Security is hard to measure, hard to manage.

But we know that in the recent past (last decade):

• Microsoft now insists on giving programmers (at least those who write customer facing code) some introduction to the principles of secure programming, knowledge which is lacking from many (most?) Free Software developers.
• Microsoft's core libraries (their C library, and so on) include components designed to be less mistake prone, and thus cause less security flaws, and they have mandated the use of the safer options wherever practical in new work by their own people.
• Microsoft invested (training, logo programs, etc.) in getting ISVs to stop doing things that encourage unsafe behaviour, like spuriously requiring Administrator privileges.
• Microsoft began developing and giving away anti-malware products to clean up already infected systems.

and in the more distant past (last two decades):

• Microsoft began producing an OS which has an actual security model, in which it's possible to look at a problem and say absolutely "that should not happen", rather than just being permanently scared of what's possible.
• Microsoft began accepting reports of security threats and acting on them, not as quickly as some would like, and not as openly, but they do act now.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 13:20 UTC (Fri) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

It's also pretty clear that some of this has resulted in demonstrably better programs. Consider IIS: It used to be on by default, with a bunch of other services also enabled, and it was incredibly insecure. Now it's not on, optional services are off, and it's been significantly hardened. Remember all the IIS worms? The ones that took down whole networks? When did we last see one of those?

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 14:18 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

The problem is that Windows is defective by design. Two problems immediately spring to mind:

  • The security model is horribly complex and baroque, especially compared to the traditional UNIX model. Yes, in theory, it's more flexible and capable than the UNIX model, but we all know that complexity is the enemy of security.
  • Microsoft still encodes metadata in filenames. For example, if a filename ends in .EXE, then (in UNIX terms) the x bit is set. This ancient and stupid design decision is still responsible for the spread of most malware, but it's impossible to fix without completely breaking Windows.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 16:13 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

If you remove execute permission from a .exe file on an NTFS volume, Windows won't let you execute it. The reason you can't do this on FAT volumes is that FAT doesn't have 'x' bits.

The real idiocy where metadata-in-file-extensions is involved is that Microsoft decided that the default behaviour of their file management applications should be to hide registered extensions from the user.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 5, 2010 22:39 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I don't have access to a Windows system, so I don't know the answer, but maybe you can tell me: If Internet Explorer downloads a file called "something.exe", is it executable? In other words, is the "x" bit implicitly turned on because of the file name?

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 6, 2010 14:53 UTC (Sat) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

No.

The .exe tells explorer that it's an executable if you double-click it. Just like if you put a .pdf extension on a text file, explorer will pass it to Acrobat to open (which will then object strongly, saying "this isn't a pdf!")

Just as Unix has mime-types, or magic numbers at the start of a file, Windows has extensions. Without some way of telling what sort of file it is, no OS will know what to do with a file when you double-click/try-to-run it. That's all the mime-type/magic-number/extension does - tell the filemanager what to do, by default, when the user selects the file.

Whether the user can then actually carry out the default action, is then down to permissions. For example, there's nothing stopping me from clicking on "secret.doc" to try and open it. Explorer will fire up Word, which will try to open it, and if the permissions are locked against me, it'll fail.

Cheers,
Wol

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 6, 2010 16:27 UTC (Sat) by dmk (subscriber, #50141) [Link]

No? the ie creates the .exe file on the disk. and it will not be executable by default? are you serious?

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 6, 2010 18:05 UTC (Sat) by ABCD (subscriber, #53650) [Link]

By default *every* file gets (the equivalent of) +x permissions in Windows, unless the permissions of the directory it is in are set not to give those permissions (ACLs are inherited from the directory by default).

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 6, 2010 21:41 UTC (Sat) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

You wrote "No", but your answer says "Yes".

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 8, 2010 12:32 UTC (Mon) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

The question asked "is it executable *because* *it* *ends* *in* *.exe*?"

To which the answer is "no". It's executable if the user has execution rights which, as others have pointed out, is the default for *all* files :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 8, 2010 13:38 UTC (Mon) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

There is a big difference between an .exe in Windows and other files automatically started by Explorer. When Explorer is starting a document it runs a program to view (or whatever the default action is) that document. For some document types this is as dangerous as running a program but for many it is not.

Also, for some time now (I think IE6 on Windows XP SP2), IE has marked downloaded files as unsafe, which means Windows prompts you with a warning asking if you want to actually run the file (if you double-clicked on it from Explorer). I don't think this actually helps security, since users won't read the dialog box and will just click the button that makes the action occur. But then again I don't know if requiring users to chmod+x their files would help security either; they'd just learn to do that and then do it by rote.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 8, 2010 20:05 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

All I can say is that Microsoft developers are evil.

It's shenanigans such as the one in the link that make "Microsoft" and "Secure" oxymoronic.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 8, 2010 23:28 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

s/evil/utterly insane/g

-- actually, I bet I know why they do this. It's because they learnt that
code reuse is good, which it is, but overinterpreted it to mean that code
reuse is *always* good, even if reusing something small (like a rendering
engine's text-painting core) means you have to add piles of code because
you're forced to use something large to do it (like arranging that
everything that you can ever render must be valid HTML).

Another way of thinking of this is that it's bad API design on the part of
the people who wrote the rendering component. They were so fixated on the
idea of rendering *HTML* that it never occurred to them that anyone might
want to render anything *else* using their lower-level code. Of course,
given what has leaked out of Microsoft about their... quite remarkable
version control systems, I'm surprised they do even *this* well.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 8, 2010 13:58 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Having the Execute permission default to "off" on newly created files on NTFS volumes would not break Windows. However, having MSIE default to saving downloaded files with their Execute permission revoked falls under "make the user jump through hoops" - and users made to jump through hoops tend to start jumping through whatever hoops are presented without checking whether there's a freshly-chummed shark tank on the other side.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 19, 2010 1:22 UTC (Fri) by TRauMa (guest, #16483) [Link]

When you download an executable from the internet, IE (and recent versions of Firefox) will mark the executable as network obtained, and as long as it lives (and get's copied and moved) on filesystems with NTFS semantics, any attempt to run them on any recent windows will prompt the user before actually executing the code.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 11, 2010 4:00 UTC (Thu) by paulmfoster (subscriber, #17313) [Link]

I'm getting *really* angry at the do-gooder types whose "public interest" schemes require a "tax" to be imposed on people who neither want nor need their help. I pay enough damn local/state/federal taxes already, most of which monies go to other people who have somehow been deemed "less fortunate" than me.

Yes, I realize this Microsoft droid isn't really a do-gooder at all. But his attitude aggravates me no end: "Just shove the [bogus] cost down to stupid users. Hell, we do it a Microsoft all the time. Screw 'em!"

inverted incentive

Posted Mar 11, 2010 20:53 UTC (Thu) by brian (subscriber, #6517) [Link]

This would encourage bad behavior. Since the cleaning up of an infected
device would be an entitlement, there would be no incentive to keep one's
devices clean.

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers (PCWorld)

Posted Mar 12, 2010 9:52 UTC (Fri) by Wout (subscriber, #8750) [Link]

A friend of mine got his Internet connection blocked by his ISP because one of his Windows systems was misbehaving (had become a zombie). The connection got reinstated when he indicated the machine was fixed. I think this is the right approach. No taxation needed.

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