You are making the claim that "freedom is important". And you are right, it is important. But this project does not promote freedom. I mean, those binary blobs are still out there. Simply removing them from the kernel does not suddenly enable developers to hack away at that code. It's still closed. Only thing this project does, is to give us a kernel that is not as functional as the vanilla-kernel. It does not in any shape or form increase the users or developers freedom.
Yes, freedom is important. But freedom that people are unable to take advantage of is next to useless. I might have the freedom to move to Mars. But since I'm unable to do so, that freedom is meaningless to me.
Free software is very important to coders, and that in return gives the users better software as well. But like I said, this project does not help coders write better software, since code that was previously closed is not being made free.
"On to software. Even if you never even realize that an improvement to a piece of software could make your computer (think cell phone, portable media player, media recorder, watch, notebook, desktop, whatever) work better for you, odds are that others will, and if they have the freedom to do it and share it with others, odds are that the benefits will percolate to you as well."
Great! And how does this project enable that? Answer: it doesn't. That unhackable code is still unhackable code. Simply removing it from the kernel accomplishes nothing.
"So, you see, the “I'm not a programmer” argument is fatally flawed"
It isn't. Most people are not programmers. And second, this project does nothing to help programmers write better code.
"Besides the point that you identified yourself, it promotes and endorses the horrible idea that it's normal and acceptable to give up control over certain parts of your computer, it gets people used to that."
And this is why Linux on the desktop has failed. Fact is that people want a computer that works. If you asked them if they would prefer a computer that ran 100% free software but had lots of features that did not work, as opposed to having a fully functional computer that ran proprietary software, they would pick the latter. That is a fact. Most people simply do not care about the freedom of the software, they just want software that WORKS. Most people are in no position to take advantage of that freedom, and they rightly do not care. Why should they concern themselves with things that they have no use of?
And what's more important is that we have the opportunity to give users a computer and software that is 99% free software, and it would be fully functional. But that is not acceptable to FSF-hardliners, who would rather have 100% free software but less functionality. End result is that people use Windows or MacOS instead. Instead of running 99% free software, they end up running 99% proprietary software. How does that benefit Free Software?
"See how Linux-libre helps you, your gradma and everyone else, by exposing the problem, helping people realize they're losing their freedom, and inviting people to vote with their wallets for hardware manufacturers to respect their customers?"
Most people have not lost anything. And those who have lost (programmers) do not benefit from this project at all, since the code that was unhackable is still unhackable.
Linux-libre does not help my grandma at all. All it would cause it for her to call me and ask "why doesn't my webcam work?". I could tell her all about free software and how she's better off when proprietary software is removed from her computer. At that point she would ask me "so you are saying that my webcam will not work in Linux? Could you come over and install Windows instead? It worked there just fine". The benefits free software gives are of no use to her, she doesn't care about them.
And I admit: my main computer is a Mac, and I have an iPod. Why? Because I felt they were superior to their alternatives. By using a Mac I'm supposedly "giving up my freedoms". But I honestly don't see that. Only thing I see is that I finally have a computer with an UI that is easy, powerful and good-looking. I finally have a computer that requires no hand-holding from me and where everything just works. Am I being stupid for choosing practicality over ideology? I mean, the closedness of the Mac has not harmed me in any shape or form. Only thing I have seen is that I get more enjoyment from my computer and my productivity went up. Is it stupid of me to choose those immediate and tangible benefits over benefits that give me n benefit at all?
I bet you are now about to make some comparison about painting houses or something. But again: I'm no programmer, so freedom of Linux or closedness of MacOS does not harm me.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 16:36 UTC (Wed) by Zack (guest, #37335)
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>And I admit: my main computer is a Mac, and I have an iPod.
>I honestly don't see that. Only thing I see is that I finally have a computer with an UI that is easy, powerful and good-looking.
Please don't understand this the wrong way, but putting these "disclaimers" somewhere near the top of your earlier posts would have saved (at least me) some time.
This is not to indicate you are wrong or right in your opinion; it's just that your perspective is probably so different from mine that it's nearly impossible to formulate something sensible enough to contribute to the thought process of the other side.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 17:01 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891)
[Link]
"This is not to indicate you are wrong or right in your opinion; it's just that your perspective is probably so different from mine that it's nearly impossible to formulate something sensible enough to contribute to the thought process of the other side."
So, because I use a Mac, my thinking is somehow "tainted"? Fact is that I use both Linux and Mac. My main computer is a Mac, but I'm typing this message on my second laptop that runs Ubuntu.
Maybe what we need is exactly what you reject: different thinking. Should only hardcore Linux-users be allowed to comment on these kinds of things? Could you get a worthwhile discussion, if every participant has 95% identical opinions and thoughts on the subject-matter? Preaching to the choir doesn't really achieve anything.
I admit: I'm quite pragmatic when it comes to computers. I look for software and hardware that gives me maximum amount of satisfaction and use. It just happens that for me, Mac is it. But that does not mean that I have to "hate" Linux (I don't, I'm a card-carrying member of local LUG) or think free software as "stupid" (I don't think it's stupid, far far from it).
Mac is my primary machine, but I use and enjoy Linux as well. Linux gives me different kinds of benefits, and I enjoy testing new things. And I started using Linux in -98 or so, so I have quite a long experience with it.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 17:24 UTC (Wed) by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link]
>So, because I use a Mac, my thinking is somehow "tainted"?
No, it's because you write "I honestly don't see that"; if you are indeed honest about that, and I have no reason to doubt that, it is an explanation to me why you write things like
"You are still not making any sense."
, which makes me raise an eyebrow and think
"Hold on, *you* are the one not making any sense.",
which is what I wrote:
"it's nearly impossible to formulate something sensible enough to contribute to the thought process of the other side", leading to two people not making any sense to one another.
>Maybe what we need is exactly what you reject: different thinking.
Yeah, I know, "think different".
But from a broader perspective, the Free Software community already are the weirdos doing the different thinking; going in the direction towards proprietary software doesn't need any championing, it's the status-quo.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 4, 2010 20:30 UTC (Thu) by papik (guest, #15175)
[Link]
> Mac is my primary machine, but I use and enjoy Linux as well. Linux
> gives me different kinds of benefits, and I enjoy testing new things.
Maybe if Mac was free, you wouldn't need Linux to enjoy those different
kind of benefits.
It seems to me that you are looking at present (as "now I can do X and Y,
with non-free software, but only X with free software, so I'll use
non-free software", with the risk that noone is aware that Y is non-free
and never having free software doing Y and no software doing Y~) while
lxoliva is looking forward (as "everyone must be aware that we can't do Y
with free software", hoping that someone will write/release free software
doing Y and Y~ in the future).
(It seems to me that the lines following lines ending with '-' are being
cut, at least from the preview)
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 17:28 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872)
[Link]
*snort* How about some non-faith-based arguments? There are damn good rational ones for "why source for firmware is generally a desirable thing"; none that I can see for that publicity stunt, but hey, maybe you guys can produce some...
If some luser duhveloper says "this code must work, because my ideology says it must and if you don't share my beliefs, there's nothing I can do, we are just culturally incompatible", the silly bugger will get a rapid and painful course of education in the reasons why solipsism derivatives are BS, why his beliefs don't mean a damn thing for reality and why his faith is not strong enough to avert the well-earned, er, uncomfortable sensations. Why should the same kind of crap be treated any kinder in this case?
Ideology is basically a set of heuristics. The output may be deemed more or less satisfactory by *external* criteria; without those all you've got is a dogmatic religion.
If you have rational and ideology-independent arguments for the tree "freed" in that manner, make those. If not, there's really nothing to talk about.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 17:59 UTC (Wed) by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link]
If it's any comfort, I don't understand most of your post either.
You seem to draw parallels between removing firmware blobs from the linux kernel and faith/ideology. I don't see the correspondence between those, since I'm not really a religious person, so it's difficult for me to correlate them in a meaningful way.
Fortunately you also write
>There are damn good rational [reasons] for "why source for firmware is generally a desirable thing"
If you could present those, that could be very useful.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 18:58 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872)
[Link]
Read what lxo has written and tell me if his reasoning survives if you remove ideology. As for the rational reasons for firmware source being generally benefitial, they are obvious and mentioned in this thread. Starting with potentially improved odds of figuring out why given piece of hardware sucks in given way by whoever ends up having to debug the breakage caused by FPOS in question. Balanced by the risks of nausea from reading it, of course, but that's a separate story.
But the same odds are also improved by
* having hardware documentation that is not entirely full of crap
* having firmware not written in Object Intercal implemented in BLISS macros
* having no"! yes, sometimes the usual opcode for NOP deadlocks the branch predictor; we'll do a hardware fix someday, for now let them patch as(1)" in there,
etc. All of those are generally good things. And if some are *not* true, you'll probably have more good reasons to curse the bleeding vendor. Which doesn't mean that e.g. removal of fuloong 2f support would be an improvement (NOP breakage, making life rather interesting).
IOW, "P may make dealing with Y less painful" doesn't mean "P should be a prereq for doing anything with Y".
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 3, 2010 21:12 UTC (Wed) by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link]
Thank you.
If I understand your examples correctly, handling firmware can be a very painful experience, nausea inducing even.
But *if* I understood them correctly, I'm not clear on your objections against the linux-libre kernel.
If someone were to say that shipping (a part of) such a vendor's product and mentioning their products name was a subset of the term "endorsement", I would not find that unreasonable.
Now if that someone would say, "I do not want to endorse any vendor that would inflict such a painful experience on those kernel-hackers, even though I myself am not a kernel hacker and my kernel might be less functional.
", I would find such an action to be social and commendable.
Where could such a user go and download a kernel that he could use in the secure knowledge that he would not be unwittingly causing problems for kernel-hackers ?
Regardless of the exact background leading to the creation of linux-libre, the end result addresses the above question nicely; now such users can go and use the linux-libre kernel.
Now "not wanting to harm anyone though inaction" might have ideological connotations, but in my opinion is more of a simple act of solidarity than any sort of strict ideology.
Freedom matters to everyonel, directly or indirectly
Posted Mar 4, 2010 15:17 UTC (Thu) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266)
[Link]
I concur that this libre tree is more of a political statement than anything else. In that sense I support it; people can make whatever political statements they want and this statement says "Only fully supported hardware is welcome".
I disagree with the underlying philosophy, though, because Free drivers make the hardware less relevant to Freedom and a Free kernel makes the drivers less relevant and a Free desktop environment makes the OS less relevant, etc, up the chain of abstraction. Yes, if there is no Free OS then you are limited, but the mere existence of a Free OS means that you can preserve some of your potential Freedom even if you are running Firefox on Windows. If Windows hurts you too much you can switch to Linux if you haven't already.
Just like hardware: you are not trapped into a particular graphics card if your apps use OpenGL; don't like how your card works or how it harms your Freedom? Get a new one. In the meantime, at least your card works. It's hardly a trap if you can leave any time.