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You're simply arguing against bovine fæcal material of your own invention.
SCALE 8x: Moving the needle
Posted Feb 27, 2010 1:48 UTC (Sat) by speedster1 (subscriber, #8143)
There are elements of popular "female" culture that are not a great fit for a developer community. For instance, suppose there were a big movement to change Free SW culture to attract the fashion-plate crowd, it really could be a big turnoff for lots of current community members (me, for one). That's a far cry from being welcoming to females who show up interested in technology and willing to learn about it from geeks in t-shirts and jeans...
Posted Mar 5, 2010 12:54 UTC (Fri) by forthy (guest, #1525)
Geeks in T-shirts and jeans (as if that was something bad)... and showing softporn... Sorry, girls, when you are so easily offended, it shows that many of you are actual misandrists, and you do nothing about it. Accept that genders come with differences (and the way sexual desires are expressed is one of the more obvious gender difference), and don't try to gender mainstream them. Come on, sexism isn't limited to males only, and when I hear girls talking about geeks, a lot of sexism comes along. This of course starts with talk about improper clothing, or personal hygiene, continues with alleged anti-social behavior, and certainly culminates in accusing of sexual harassment for every possible occasion. As long as such hatred exists on the other side, it is very difficult to overcome.
If you have enough women together, it is very easy to find some with improper clothing, insufficient personal hygiene, and social deficits, as well. This is normal standard distribution of statistics. Using these examples and making conclusions to a larger community is prejudice.
I'm fine that misogynism is now considered inappropriate behavior. However, we can't get much further if we allow open misandrism. And the general hostile perception of geeks by women is open misandrism - while a lot worse behavior is usually tolerated with traditional "high value" professions such as in finance or medicine. Or so to speak: We geeks aren't as well dressed as marketing - but we don't take our customers to the brothel.
Posted Mar 5, 2010 22:47 UTC (Fri) by speedster1 (subscriber, #8143)
Sorry if you felt sterotyped by my example, but it was a complete misinterpretation!
My example stated that we should not be pressured into being "fashion conscious" in order to attract women who are into pop culture. Feel free to scold me for doubting that a group of people who have been trained to obsess over clothes are worthy recruits for a community more interested in creative problem-solving, but don't accuse me of picking on geeks. The last statement was meant as a contrast; there are also women who are more interested in learning than getting hung up on what people are wearing, and you can welcome them without discriminating against current members.
Try reading my comment again, in the full context of the thread. I'll summarize what I got from it.
golding: don't get hung up on female attendance, just be open to all coders independent of gender
paulj: golding is paranoid about having females getting favored over him; that's a non-issue in the real world
speedster1: maybe golding is not paranoid; some efforts to "balance attendance" really could be detrimental to the existing community, *insert hypothetical example of doin' it wrong*, so try to be sensible
forthy: everyone picks on geeks for being bad dressers and lacking in hygiene, and in general it's popular among girls to be man-haters nowadays
speedster1: Hello, hello??? I'm NOT picking on geeks for being bad dressers or lacking in hygiene; I AM one. Be nice to women like Sarah Mei who are interested in technology, but don't bend over backwards to attract women who spend hours primping every day and think what Vogue has to say is important. It probably wouldn't work anyways.
Posted Mar 6, 2010 0:04 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872)
Killfile support would really be worthy raising the price of subscription...
Posted Mar 6, 2010 2:26 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
WTF? No one is asking you to "be nice to women". No one is asking you to
go out of your way to do anything, or put yourself to any trouble. The only
thing you're asked to do, nay you MUST do, is just treat people *normally*
and not be an arse.
Also, this quote of yours is mild WTF material, though I believe you mean
"That's a far cry from being welcoming to females who show up interested
in technology and willing to learn about it from geeks in t-shirts and
Can you spot the subconscious, but not very subtle, chauvinism in this
comment of yours?
Posted Mar 6, 2010 7:37 UTC (Sat) by speedster1 (subscriber, #8143)
Obviously you are not all gung-ho about affirmative-action type of social engineering, which can backfire in various ways. So I really don't see where we even disagree on this topic.
"Be nice to women like Sarah Mei who are interested in technology,"
That doesn't sound like an unreasonable goal to me. I aim to be friendly to all who show up at my LUG. People generally seem to like it. Probably that fits somewhere into your definition of "treating people normally".
"That's a far cry from being welcoming to females who show up interested in technology and willing to learn about it from geeks in t-shirts and jeans..."
This is not patronizing if taken in context. Consider that the topic of this article was about attracting females who are not currently part of the community. So their first role would be that of learner. If Valerie Aurora were in town, I'd try to talk her into doing a presentation. If I asked the organic avocado farmer in my LUG to do a presentation on anything Linux-related, she'd turn me down in about 0 seconds flat.
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