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SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet)
Richard Stallman sounds off on the SCO lawsuit in this ZDNet column.
"In a community of over half a million developers, we can hardly expect that there will never be plagiarism. But it is no disaster; we discard that material and move on. If there is material in Linux that was contributed without legal authorization, the Linux developers will learn what it is and replace it. SCO cannot use its copyrights, or its contracts with specific parties, to suppress the lawful contributions of thousands of others. Linux itself is no longer essential: the GNU system became popular in conjunction with Linux, but today it also runs with two BSD kernels and the GNU kernel. Our community cannot be defeated by this."
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SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 8:51 UTC (Tue) by BillyBreen (guest, #3988) [Link] Is it just me, or does it seem like Stallman's just another person spinning this thing to his advantage?"Don't worry about Linux. GNU is what matters!"
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 12:15 UTC (Tue) by TwoTimeGrime (guest, #11688) [Link] Nope. It's just you. GNU _is_ what matters. The GNU tools were around long before Linux and would continue to live on and be used if Linux went away. The kernel is replaceable. It's like an engine in a car. Don't like it? Pull it out and put in a different one.The userspace tools are what I interact with directly, not the kernel. Back when I used SGIs I installed GNU tools to use instead of what came with the system. If I had to work on a Sun machine, I'd install the GNU tools on there too. I now use Windows machines at work and I've installed Cygwin and all the GNU tools. No Linux on my Windows box but I still have what matters -- the GNU tools.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 17:57 UTC (Tue) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] It's like an engine in a car. Don't like it? Pull it out and put in a different one.This is not as easy as you make it out to be. For one thing, engine mount placement isn't standardized; you can't just arbitrarily replace one engine with a different one. And even if you can, this affects the chassis dynamics, especially on a unibody car. Now you're into changing spring rates, which leads to changing shock valving, and maybe even anti-roll diameter and bushings. Engine swapping is common with hotrods, but hotrods are seldom good for anything but looking good and going in a straight line.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 25, 2003 7:56 UTC (Wed) by cspalletta (subscriber, #12402) [Link] Most people working on the Linux kernel are involved becausethey find operating systems work fascinating in itself. And if Linus had become a hack journalist ("my family are all journalists, so I know what scum they are") rather than a programmer, then BSD would have taken it's place, because the time was right. rms is 100% correct - even if for the wrong reasons. Carl Spalletta "When I read this book I was astonished by how much pleasure I got ..
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 9:07 UTC (Tue) by elanthis (subscriber, #6227) [Link] I get so sick of that guy. GNU would barely even be used if it weren't for Linux. Hell, if the Linux kernel did up and disappear, most of the GNU system would also die with it; the Hurd is absolutely useless for real work, and the BSD kernels have their own userspace systems to use. GNOME, GIMP, GCC, autotools, and a few other utilities would be all that's left. GNU is thriving because of Linux; not the other way around.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 9:35 UTC (Tue) by Bob (guest, #15) [Link] In about 1991, where I worked, we got Sun systems. First thing we did was load all theGNU tools on them, and put the GNU directories ahead of the directories with the SUN tools in PATH. Several years later, the Sun systems were replaced with HP systems. We did the same thing. This meant that we had the best tools, and in moving from one system to another everything important, ls, grep, diff, all worked the same. The GNU system was in widespread use before Linux was popular.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 25, 2003 11:04 UTC (Wed) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] Sure, at Universities and such (a tiny proportion of big(er) iron Unix users) it was standard to install open source stuff (sendmail, X11 from source, TeX, gcc, emacs, patch, etc). But the industry people didn't even _know_ all this existed. And of what got installed, GNU was in turn a minority.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 9:41 UTC (Tue) by utidjian (subscriber, #444) [Link] Actually, he is pretty much correct. The facts...* The GNU project predates Linux by 7 years. What is not so clear (to me)... I think that what Richard is saying is that... if the Linux kernel were to dissappear today in a puff of magic smoke... that GNU and all its tools would still be available and run just fine on alternative kernels... but this has always been true. What has NOT always been true is that there are other GPL kernels for GNU tools to run on. YMMV -DU-...etc...
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 10:04 UTC (Tue) by mem (subscriber, #517) [Link] There are not GNU *BSD kernels, but there are GNU/*BSD systems. Here's some discussion and links, here's some more.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 10:16 UTC (Tue) by jens (guest, #12370) [Link] Linux is not possible without GNU Tools, as for example there's no otherC-Compiler.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 11:25 UTC (Tue) by torsten (guest, #4137) [Link] ...there's no other C-Compiler. There are other C compilers, and Linux compiles with one or two of them. Linux depends on gcc-specific compiler flags for operation. If it weren't for this, one could compile Linux on Microsoft's Visual C compiler.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 20:10 UTC (Tue) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Since when can visual c/c++ compile anything other than peecee executables (.com or .exe)? can ms do a.out or elf format now?
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 10:19 UTC (Tue) by AAP (guest, #721) [Link] The BSD's aren't GPL, but they ARE free (even by RMS's definition). I'm sure a BSD kernel would be RMS's third choice (behind Hurd & Linux) but he could probably stomach it in a pinch.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 10:32 UTC (Tue) by haraldt (guest, #961) [Link] Also, the Hurd kernel wouldn't be so underdeveloped if there weren't already enough viable alternatives. If the unlikely happened and Linux couldn't be used, Hurd (and other possible alternatives) would have gotten a lot better. With speed.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 10:21 UTC (Tue) by ccchips (guest, #3222) [Link] 2 tings:1: When The Open Group tried to shut out "hackers" from X, the Xfree poeple planned on a fork. At that time, Mr, Stallman reminded everyone that such behavior might not be so easy if X had been GPL'ed in the first place. The only reason GGI hasn't gone anywhere is because X is already around; I suspect that if X was coopted by some pigs or "reclaimed" by the likes of SCO, GGI would be back on people's minds. 2. Linux is available under the GPL, just like the rest of the GNU tools. The difference is that the GNU project doesn't hold the copyrights. 3. Coherrent + GNU would have been nice except Coherrent didn't have swapping, and GNU tools use a lot of memory. I was greatly excited when I started using Linux *BECAUSE* many of its major components were from the GNU project. I never got too much into BSD because they were *NOT* major components (had to be added later.) 4. Keep in mind that Stallman is trying to make sure that work you do, that you want to be shared and public, *remains* shared and public, rather than being snarfed up by some big company against your will. I would rather have GNU than GNOT.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 12:27 UTC (Tue) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] This shoudnt be Linux vs Gnu or Gnu vs Linux,... this should be LINUX + GNU or GNU+ LINUX because they need eachother...Misintrepertation "IS EASY" specialy when everybody knows that 2 big personalities like RMS and Linus collide sometimes,... hey, but thats "NATURAL" even in families!
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 14:19 UTC (Tue) by torsten (guest, #4137) [Link] "This shoudnt be Linux vs Gnu or Gnu vs Linux,... this should be LINUX + GNU or GNU+ LINUX because they need eachother..." Nonsense. Many people use GNU tools without Linux. They do not need each other.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 25, 2003 12:47 UTC (Wed) by cpm (subscriber, #3554) [Link] Well, they may not need each other. But I sure need them both.Stallman has done the world, and the future a huge favor. I really wish that folks would stop trying to bust his chops all the time.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 12:50 UTC (Tue) by nicku (subscriber, #777) [Link] I used GNU tools on MSDOS, Windows 3.x, OS/2 for some years before I found Linux, and immediately felt completely at home when I did. I thank you Richard, as well as Linus, and all the thousands of others in this vibrant community.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 10:35 UTC (Tue) by sveinrn (subscriber, #2827) [Link] From the definition of "The GNU System", at http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#TheGNUsystem"The GNU system is a complete free Unix-like operating system. Since the purpose of GNU is to be free, every single component in the GNU system has to be free software. They don't all have to be copylefted, however; any kind of free software is legally suitable to include if it helps meet technical goals. We can and do use non-copylefted free software such as the X Window System."
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 11:05 UTC (Tue) by mem (subscriber, #517) [Link] I have the feeling this is a fact. Start with a fully operational out-of-the-box distribution installation. Remove all the GNU (not GPLed, GNU) components from the system. The kernel might boot and init might start to run, but that's pretty much it. OTOH, you could remove a gazillion other things, which might be even larger if measured by the number of bytes they use on the HD... and the machine still works, maybe not as before, and it might not be able to do everything it did before, it the point is it will be running and you'd have a system where it would be possible to recompile all those things again.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 11:57 UTC (Tue) by sveinrn (subscriber, #2827) [Link] The GNU programs include lots of development tools, libraries, system utilities etc. So yes, even compiling the kernel would be difficult. But even though the GNU programs are vital to get a usable system, there isn't much I can do with a pure GNU system. Then again, how is an OS defined? Is MySQL part of the OS? Probably not. Is gcc? Maybe. And I do not deny the importance of GNU software in my (GNU/)Linux distribution.But then again, my point was that as long as "The GNU System" is not pure GNU software, I don't think they can claim ownership of it. And if they do not own it, how can they demand that an OS distribution containing it should carry the GNU name? From http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html: Very confusing language. First they call it "the GNU system". The next time they simply call it "GNU". Again a bit like SCO that call their own OS simply "Unix".
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 11:53 UTC (Tue) by torsten (guest, #4137) [Link] I am a bit confused here. They claim that it should be called "GNU/Linux" because it is a "modified version of the GNU System". If "the GNU System" consisted only of packages developed or owned by FSF, I could understand it. But claiming that it should be called "GNU/Linux" because it uses many of the packages that the FSF intended to use for their GNU System, isn't that a bit like SCO claiming to own all code developed for inclusion in a system derived from System V? No. Making a comparison to SCO is nonsense. RMS's insistence on naming is not an attempt to co-opt the development of free software for his own desires. It is an attempt at recognition, which he is not enforcing through lawsuits and FUD, but merely insistently requesting. RMS has not received the accolades he deserved for the work he did. For one, I can understand his desire for recognition. Torsten
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 16:16 UTC (Tue) by danielpf (subscriber, #4723) [Link] "RMS's insistence on naming is not an attempt to co-opt the development of free software for his own desires. It is an attempt at recognition, which he is not enforcing through lawsuits and FUD, but merely insistently requesting."The problem with RMS one-sided view is that "Linux" is often The second problem is that normal people prefer the shorter Linux IMHO RMS here loses its energy for a futile battle.
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 18:10 UTC (Tue) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] "GNU/Linux" is a clumsy choice that nobody with the slightest sense of good publicity would retain.Yes, exactly. Naming a kernel that ryhmes with "turd" wasn't a stroke of marketing genius either. Selecting better names so that they more accurately reflect the quality of the software that they represent might give Richard at least of fighting chance on his quest to make the whole world say "GNU/Linux."
SCO smear campaign can't defeat GNU community (ZDNet) Posted Jun 24, 2003 11:35 UTC (Tue) by dwalters (subscriber, #4207) [Link] Neither GNU nor the Linux kernel would be where they are today without each other; they are symbiotic. Even though they may not see eye-to-eye with each other, both Richard Stallman and Linus Torvalds deserve the respect and gratitude of the GNU/Linux community for their contributions and the work they've done. Keep up the good work chaps!Just my £0.02
Hear, hear! Posted Jun 24, 2003 13:06 UTC (Tue) by jre (guest, #2807) [Link] Let me second that.We often lose sight of the fact that free software needs both principles and personality to succeed in the long run. It is unfortunate that RMS tends to inspire negative emotional reactions, because his central point is factually correct: Linux did build upon GNU, rather than the other way around. At the same time, you won't get very far toward World Domination without a kernel, and Hurd development has not, shall we say, set any speed records. Setting aside the scheduling issues, who do you want to represent your organization / movement / philosophy in the public eye: a dour revolutionary, or a sunny pragmatist? Quiz #1: Compare the tone of the following two remarks. Who made them? " It is impossible to attribute any coherent meaning to them overall, but they appear to accuse the entire GNU/Linux system of being copied from Unix." "I allege that SCO is full of it, and that the Linux process is already the most transparent process in the whole industry." Quiz #2: In the movie, who will play Linus, and who will play RMS? 1) Tom Hanks
Hear, hear! Posted Jun 24, 2003 13:42 UTC (Tue) by naughty-artkitekt (guest, #10552) [Link] 2: Billy Bob Thornton can play something somewhere...or Mark Wahlberg (if he puts on a few pounds and some cheek-shiner....and smiles a lot)
Hear, hear! Posted Jun 24, 2003 13:57 UTC (Tue) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] I was surprised by the tone of the article.SCO has been trying to make people upset by calling Linux developers communists, insulting their code and threatenning Linux users. They do all this despite the fact that they haven't presented any evidence. RMS was very humble.
Hear, hear! Posted Jun 24, 2003 19:37 UTC (Tue) by jre (guest, #2807) [Link] My point exactly.The whole thing is just chock-full of poignant irony, when you think about it. Richard Stallman created the philosophical and legal foundation for the free software movement. He dedicated his life to that cause, laboring in poverty and obscurity for years. He saw the whole thing take off beyond his wildest dreams, but without any credit given to him or his organization. He starts to insist on the use of an awkward (but fair) term to describe the wonder-phenomenon all the tech writers in the Sunday papers are on fire about. And then .. and then ... He catches a bunch of crap for trying to grab the limelight from Linux! Why? No charisma. Linus Torvalds is a smart, principled guy -- but, more to the point, he has charisma. He's witty and personable, a great interview subject. Everybody loves Linus, and why shouldn't they? Richard Stallman is also a smart, principled guy, but he comes off as -- let's face it -- Mr. Spock without the warmth. His answers to interview questions are lucid and well-organized; also humorless and didactic. That's why everyone is annoyed by RMS, and everyone loves to give him crap for being a self-serving egoist, even when every damn thing he says is right. If that doesn't tell us everything we need to know about the value of good PR in our culture, I don't know what would.
The Heck with PR, in any event I prefer GNU/GPL/Linux. Posted Jun 25, 2003 1:31 UTC (Wed) by sgposs (guest, #12391) [Link] I say leave the PR to those who either can't think for themselves or areso wrapped up with self-aggrandizement that they can't think of anything else. IMHO life is too short to waste it on PR, especially if you have to sacrifice the joy of truth to attain it. Instead, just give me the opportunity to show my appreciation to Richard Stallman and his associates for getting open-source off the ground. His comments are exactly correct and the power of his ideas, together with the technical accomplishments of many others, such as Linus Torvalds, have greatly advanced the cause of freedom, a greatly diminished commodity these days, despite these mighty efforts. Although some of my fellow linux aficionados may not fully appreciate the signficance of his work, I'm sure Bill Gates is keenly aware of the power and importance of Stallman's ideas and the forces he has set in motion. Its a testament to the strength of his character that, unlike Mr. Gates, Richard Stallman chooses to share the wealth of his ideas, rather than use them to amass a personal empire. I doubt Stallman has to worry that history will fail to record the immense contribution he has made to open computing and to human freedom. I suggest that GNU/GPL/Linux users not underestimate it, lest we risk loosing both. Instead extend it and build upon it in the spirit Stallman, and many before him, such as Pascal, Babbage, Turing, von Neumann, Codd, and Knuth have brought to computing. I do agree with you that charisma is a perception rather than an accomplishment. Darwinian reality condems humanity to live in societies where wealth, celebrity and heredity are often more favorably regarded than character, intellect, or wisdom. The latter can't be fully appreciated by those with an inadequate capacity to think clearly. How else can we explain the seemingly exponential increase in pundits, talking-heads, journalists, political advisers, and, of course, public relations experts? Nonetheless, I never cease to be amazed by the number of people who turn to talk-radio, glamour/personality magazines, and TV advertisements to learn what they should be thinking. Whatever happened to sitting down and reading a good math book?
The Heck with PR, in any event I prefer GNU/GPL/Linux. Posted Jun 25, 2003 9:54 UTC (Wed) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] IMHO life is too short to waste it on PR, especially if you have to sacrifice the joy of truth to attain it.PR can be a tool for sharing joy and truth with other people. If PR/marketing seems weird, it's mostly because people are weird! PR/marketing people have researched and studied this stuff the way we have studied computer science, and as hard as it is for most of use to try and make it all the way through a press release without daydreaming about CPU scheduling algorithms, this stuff works on the target audience or they wouldn't do it. Darwinian reality [snip] Deafening silence.
Hear, hear! Posted Jun 25, 2003 5:07 UTC (Wed) by jeroen (subscriber, #12372) [Link] The good thing is that the free software movement doesn't want world domination, it wants world liberation instead.
Hear, hear! Posted Jun 25, 2003 7:57 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] Exactly... so many people take the "world domination" thing way too seriously--the original quote from Linus was a joke after all. :-) I think perhaps the thing that ticks a lot of people off about Richard is his obvious disdain for competition and one-upmanship, which for many people seems to be a religion. I personally find it very refreshing.
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