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MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

February 16, 2010

This article was contributed by Nathan Willis

The mobile Linux world is about to get simpler, as Nokia's Maemo platform for handheld mobile devices and Intel's Moblin project for netbooks are merging. The combined "MeeGo" stack will still differentiate between device types at the "user experience" level, but will share the same system-level components and, hopefully, unite developer communities by offering a common base. The announcement was made on February 15th, with content and details continuing to roll out on the meego.com site.

Nokia started Maemo in 2005, which was first delivered on a series of WiFi-connected pocket tablets without cellular connectivity, but eventually moving into mobile phones with the 2009 launch of the N900. Moblin was launched in 2007 by Intel, targeting netbooks running on Intel Atom processors. In April of 2009, Intel signed governance of the project over to the non-profit Linux Foundation, but continued to guide its development. Moblin publicly released 2.0 "beta" code for netbooks in May, but previewed an update of the stack running on Atom-powered phones in September.

The mobile industry trade press, understandably, is reporting on the MeeGo announcement as a defensive move to counter the challenge posed by Google's Android (and, to a lesser extent, ChromeOS). Android has seen tremendous growth in the past year, with more than two dozen products now shipping from a variety of device manufacturers. But while Android may seem like a more direct challenge to Maemo, it is not limited to phones. Several products have been announced that edge further into the device space sought by Moblin, including netbooks, tablets, and e-book readers. Nor is Google the only mobile operating system vendor producing a Linux-based platform for portable devices; Palm, Samsung, and the multi-manufacturer consortium called the LiMo Foundation all produce competing offerings.

However, within the spectrum of mobile Linux operating systems, Moblin and Maemo were already the two projects with the greatest overlap in terms of technical design and governance structure. Android, ChromeOS, and Palm's webOS all use the Linux kernel and portions of the same software stack found on graphical desktops, but provide limited APIs for application deployment. While source code for upstream components is available for all Linux-based operating systems, the platforms still differ in terms of openness. Android and ChromeOS are freely available to outside platform developers, and accept patches and bug reports. The LiMo Platform includes components contributed by member handset makers, including some that are proprietary and is governed by its member contributors. Palm's webOS and Samsung's newly-announced Bada are single-vendor products.

Maemo and Moblin both started with existing desktop Linux distributions: Maemo was originally based on Debian, Moblin on Fedora, although both incorporated technology from other distributions as well. Underneath, however, they ran strikingly similar middleware platforms. Both used X, GLib, D-Bus, Pango, Cairo, GStreamer, Evolution Data Server, PulseAudio, Mozilla's Gecko HTML rendering engine, Telepathy, ConnMan, and a host of other common utilities. GNOME's Dave Neary even commented on the similarity in response to concerns that there were "too many" mobile Linux platforms. In addition, both projects sought to make their platforms fully accessible to third-party developers, without the need to license an SDK or, in most cases, to code to different APIs. Both worked to develop active, open communities around the code base.

In retrospect, though, perhaps the clearest harbinger of the merge is oFono, the open telephony stack project launched jointly by Intel and Nokia in May of 2009. The closed source telephony stack included in the N900 was a lightning rod for criticism from free software advocates — though Nokia justified its decision to write a new stack from scratch — but, prior to Monday's announcement, Intel's involvement in oFono stood out as an oddity. Now it makes sense.

Merging, nuts and bolts

In spite of the similarities, Maemo and Moblin did have their differences, particularly in the choice for top-level toolkit. Moblin used GTK+ and Clutter as its preferred toolkits, while the latest Maemo release was in the process of switching over to Qt.

As posted on the MeeGo web site, the combined platform closely resembles the Moblin base, but with Qt as the interface toolkit. The architecture diagram provided is vague, listing components only as "Internet Services," "Media Services," "Data Management," and so forth, but according to additional information provided by MeeGo, most of the stack remains unchanged from Moblin 2.0.

Both Qt and GTK+/Clutter blocks are shown in the MeeGo architecture diagram, but the Qt block is three times larger, and the "getting started" documents in the developers' section of the site only address Qt. Still, the FAQ explicitly says that both toolkits will be supported, so the simplest interpretation of the diagram may just be that Nokia, as corporate owner of Qt, is expected to contribute a larger share of developer-time via its toolkit.

More interesting is the fact that the combined MeeGo platform will support at least two processor architectures, ARM and Atom — in addition to any others championed by the community. The hardware enabling process outlines what the MeeGo project has in mind, with platform maintainers for each architecture overseeing responsibility for kernel, X, bootloader, and other hardware-specific adaptations.

Different devices appear to diverge at top of the stack, however, which MeeGo describes as the user experience (UX) level. The two UXes discussed on the site are the Handheld UX and the Netbook UX, which correspond neatly to the previous Maemo and Moblin product spaces. What is contained in each UX block is not as clear, however; each definitely includes the basic user interface and application suite, but according to the architecture diagram also incorporates a UI framework. Intriguingly, several places on the MeeGo site mention other UXes, including in-vehicle computers and connected televisions in particular — one possibility may be from Genivi, a non-profit industry group working on "In-Vehicle Infotainment" systems.

In the past, the UX layer formed a minor point of contention in the Maemo community, because Nokia kept the source code closed to several of its top-level applications. While most accepted the situation, there were always some who objected to the presence of any closed components in the distribution. Nokia responded by providing a detailed list of the closed components, the reasons why each was not opened, and a process through which developers could request the opening of a particular component.

To see precisely what MeeGo devices will include as UX components, one will have to wait for products to ship. The first release of the MeeGo platform itself is slated for the second quarter of 2010, with products following later in the year. Nokia's Quim Gil says that the Maemo 6 release previously scheduled for 2010 will proceed as planned; Maemo will be rebranded as MeeGo, but will not incorporate any changes to the software.

Communities

Arguably a bigger challenge than producing a new mobile Linux distribution will be merging the existing Moblin and Maemo user and developer communities. Maemo, being the older, has the more established community, with an active forum, a community council, and extensive documentation and processes for independent application developers to get their software tested and packaged for public release.

Moblin's community is smaller, centered around a pair of mailing lists, and it has a smaller garage of third-party applications. On the other hand, the majority of third-party Moblin applications are Moblin builds of existing desktop Linux applications; in contrast many Maemo projects are either standalone works or heavily-modified applications tailored for the handheld user experience.

Discussions on how to merge the communities have already started within both Moblin and Maemo. The MeeGo site has IRC and mailing list options in place already, but has not yet launched developer documentation or bug tracking. It does, however, outline the participation process for working on MeeGo itself, through the licensing policy and contribution guidelines.

Governance will be provided by a Technical Steering Group, to be headed by Imad Sousou from Intel and Valtteri Halla from Nokia, and meeting publicly biweekly. There is no admission or membership process to become a MeeGo contributor, and contributing code will require no copyright assignment:

MeeGo project will neither require nor accept copyright assignment for code contributions. The principle behind this is on the one hand to avoid extra bureaucracy or other obstacles discouraging contributions. On the other hand the idea is to emphasize that contributors themselves carry the rights and responsibilities associated with their code. MeeGo is a common concern of its project community and all participants should represent themselves and continuously influence the result through their own contribution.

Code contributions are encouraged to take place rather in the upstream component projects than in MeeGo. Project focus is in integrating existing upstream components into a platform release rather than in new code development. Therefore the objective is to minimize MeeGo patch against upstream projects and to avoid accumulating patches which serve other purpose than release integration and stabilization.

Finally, MeeGo raises one other community challenge, that as the only Linux distribution hosted by the vendor-neutral Linux Foundation itself, it could be perceived as an endorsed threat against the mobile Linux offerings of other Foundation members — such as Google.

Executive Director Jim Zemlin says the Foundation has a long history of industry collaboration on technical, legal, and community efforts, and cites other direct competitors such as Red Hat, Ubuntu, and Novell, that participate willingly in projects together, and benefit from the work. The Linux Foundation's job is to protect the ecosystem and the community, he said, and by hosting the MeeGo project it will provide a neutral forum for progress in development, specifications, and governance. This makes MeeGo similar to other Linux Foundation projects, he added, such as Linuxprinting.org, Carrier Grade Linux, accessibility, the Linux Standard Base, and others.

There is no denying that mobile is top-priority target for the Linux community. Android, webOS, and ChromeOS fans may perceive MeeGo as a threat, but when one looks beyond the brand names, the playing field is no different than that on which desktop and server Linux distributions compete: all have access to the same kernel, the same graphics subsystem, utilities and toolkits. No competitor is at a technical disadvantage.

What does make MeeGo unique in the mobile line-up is that it follows the desktop Linux model so closely. Individually, the Moblin and Maemo projects used that to their advantage, rapidly building robust communities and products. The odds are that their combined effort will play much the same way; if other, less open Linux-based mobile stacks see their sales threatened as a result, the best response will be for them to change their game.


Index entries for this article
GuestArticlesWillis, Nathan


to post comments

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 16, 2010 22:09 UTC (Tue) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link] (1 responses)

"This makes MeeGo similar to other Linux Foundation projects, he added, such as Linuxprinting.org, Carrier Grade Linux, accessibility, the Linux Standard Base, and others."

Could someone educate us about the degree of success of these other projects?

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:36 UTC (Wed) by kpvangend (guest, #22351) [Link]

I can only comment on Carrier Grade Linux.
That's a huge success - in the relatively small area of Telecoms.

Several (mostly embedded) vendors have spent a huge amount of effort to write the spec and adhere to it.

The CGL5 spec should be released this year, with products adhering to it following shortly.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 16, 2010 22:29 UTC (Tue) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link] (7 responses)

Moblin was originally based on Ubuntu. Canonical worked with Intel at
Moblins beginning.

"GTK and Clutter are also included for application
compatibility."(http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture)
My translation: Once Qt versions for most use cases are mature we will drop
GTK/Clutter.

And AFAIK the current Bada phone from Samsung does not use the Linux kernel.
It uses some proprietary kernel.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 17, 2010 10:43 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (5 responses)

I recall the initial Moblin versions being based on Fedora, and using XFCE as desktop until the the Moblin UI (the one based on Clutter) came to be.
I think all Canonical did was take the Moblin UI and adapted it to work on top an Ubuntu base.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 18, 2010 7:46 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]

Wrong.

This is how it went down:

Moblin was deb- and XFCE-based in the beginning. Intel partnered with
Canonical.

Later they used rpm/Fedora and Canonical adopted the new Clutter based
Moblin.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 18, 2010 13:08 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (3 responses)

Unfortunately, Moblin has diverged from Fedora quickly, so MeeGo will probably end up a complete separate distribution.

It's the usual 'NIH, faster to reinvent the wheel than coordinate' symptom. It's a net win at first, and a big loss after a few years when the drain of supporting a whole system alone eats resources that would be better spent on adding new features.

Nokia's and Intel's focus is very narrow, I fear MeeGo will be deeply imbalanced soon (ie anything not a priority for the two big sponsors will suck).

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 18, 2010 16:55 UTC (Thu) by blitzkrieg3 (guest, #57873) [Link] (2 responses)

That isn't entirely accurate. It seems like every day Intel is hiring a new Linux or Cairo or Gnome dev. They have more than enough developers to have their own distro, and basing it off a distro with different goals (mainly to become an enterprise linux) would only slow them down due to patch management etc.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 18, 2010 18:03 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

Where do you think most of the packages from Moblin came from? What do you
believe is the percentage of packages maintained by volunteers in Fedora?

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 18, 2010 18:48 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

I'm not saying that Fedora was not used to seed Moblin, but Moblin never committed to keep in sync with Fedora and last I've seen the changes that occurred Fedora-side after this seeding were never pulled Moblin-side.

(more the pity since Moblin forked Fedora early in a cycle when stuff was far from stabilized)

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin + Corrections

Posted Feb 17, 2010 21:44 UTC (Wed) by HappyCamp (guest, #29230) [Link]

Actually Moblin was originally based on Ubuntu in the beginning. Then later on it switched to an RPM based distribution.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 16, 2010 23:34 UTC (Tue) by TRS-80 (guest, #1804) [Link]

Great article, it answered all the questions I had about the merger.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 16, 2010 23:41 UTC (Tue) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (24 responses)

What is happening here isn't merging. Merging is Nokia marketing speak for the death of Linux Distribution they created. Put is simple terms, Nokia is ditching their own home grown distribution (Meamo) in favour of Intels Molbin. They are porting their Qt UI libraries and a few apps, but that is about it.

Maybe some of the reasons for this were revealed in this post:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=528755#post528755

Any death causes a lot of angst amongst those who were close to the deceased, and this is no exception. The points that came up on most on talk.maemo.org, were:

1. Will MeeGo run on the N900?

2. What will happen to to the maemo.org community? (Good question, as Nokia hasn't said. But would have to think it will be the same as meamo: what doesn't migrate over to Molbin will die.)

3. Dislike of the move from a Debian based system to Fedora.

The last question was the cause of most consternation, and probably for good reason. It seems likely Nokia will do their best to make the maemo.org community feel at home at MeeGo, and of course MeeGo will run on the N900. But Debian packaging is dead, primarily because RedHat managed to make rpm the preferred format for LSB. That means all the packaging work done by the maemo.org community is also now dead. It also means Debian's package repository, which is the largest on the planet, will be lost to the community. This is doubly sad because Debian has an official armel port and Fedora doesn't, and many of the current Debian ARM binary packages just worked on the N900.

In the end all this probably means very little to Nokia. They had a go at creating their own distribution. It failed, and so they are making a commercial decision to move on. The users at maemo.org represent very little in the way of sales, the users they will loose because the N900 was a phone running mini Debian distribution are vanishingly small. But many in the community at maemo.org has invested something worth more to them than money, and seeing this investment sacrificed on the hard alter of commercial reality is proving a bit hard to take right now.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 0:05 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (19 responses)

They should not be so down about it.

Moblin and Maemo are very very similar and always have been. The differences between Fedora and Debian are actually pretty small. Sure you don't have the same ARMEL distribution support upstream, but Debian and Fedora all share the same exact code bases and similar versions for all but a tiny distro-specific fraction of the software. So the effort to make Fedora to actually support armeabi is going to be small. The biggest problems are probably going to get cross-compiling support for Fedora up to speed, but that is handled by GCC and other upstream projects just fine.

Anyways. It's time for Fedora to start support ARM anyways. The ARM-linux user base has surpassed all other arches except for x86 and x86-64 for a couple years now. I would be surprised if it took much effort to get ARM officially supported if all of a sudden a new crop of users showed up.

For a young project your probably better off with Fedora. Especially if you want to get packages supported by Fedora and become actual Fedora members. The time and effort it takes to become a Debian maintainer is very high; while it should be much easier to get involved in the Fedora project. You will find it's much easier to belong and support packages as well as get your changes in the base OS.

People have tried to build off of Debian in the past and they all got kinda screwed over by Debian's inability to get releases out in a timely manner. (believe me, the link in your post is NOT unique to people trying to work with Debian) The only people that successfully done it is Ubuntu and that was because they were willing to do their own releases off of Sid rather then waiting around for Debian stable to surface. For every movement like this there are upsides and downsides. So while it is bad to move away from Debian; it is good also.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 0:15 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (7 responses)

it's long past time for Fedora to support ARM, and several other architectures.

unfortunately it's more than just pointing a cross-compiler at your tree and letting it churn for a while. Debian has been doing the work, and a lot of testing. RedHat will now need to start doing this.

I also wonder how well it's going to work to base a phone distro (which may not be upgraded entirely for years) on a distro that only has a 12-month support window.

I've built small system images from both RedHat and Debian distros. It's _much_ easier to strip down the debian distro. The OLPC software fiasco had many causes, but I think that one of them was the problem of trying to balance between forking packages and living with the bloat.

In this case I suspect that after a year or so all that 'based on Fedora' will mean is that it uses rpm packages, but the software itself will probably have very little in common with the then-current Fedora distro.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 0:53 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

unfortunately it's more than just pointing a cross-compiler at your tree and letting it churn for a while. Debian has been doing the work, and a lot of testing. RedHat will now need to start doing this.

Well.. it kinda is for some developers. If your building a embedded system this has been very acceptable solution traditionally. It drives me batty, but for most devices you have a single application you need to support. Once you get that working on your OS then your goal is to never touch your OS again. It's done. So a one-time effort of compiling your own stuff and doing a bunch of hacks and work arounds is perfectly acceptable.

Of course that is not really something useful for a long term project that wants to support lots of different stuff. It'll take some effort and it won't happen overnight, but most of the work is already done by Debian.

Like I said before if you step back and look at the distros.. they are in their own little sandboxes, but they all use just about the same versions of software in the same ways with the same code base. There is relatively little variation. So most of the work that Debian has put into their ports will hugely benefit Fedora if they decide to go that direction.

also wonder how well it's going to work to base a phone distro (which may not be upgraded entirely for years) on a distro that only has a 12-month support window.

It probably does not matter a whole lot.

Right now you'll need the latest and greatest QT4 version to get what is needed commercially. Is that in Debian Stable now? Nope. When is the next Debian stable going to come out and get that support? Not even Debian knows. It could be in 8 months, it could be in 2 years. What if you need to back port newer features? Any code you touch means your on your own.

If Debian stuck to a time-based release then Nokia and other third party folks could coordinate and work with them. But the way it is now they can't. I know this is beating a dead horse, but that is just the reality of the situation.

So while Debian may offer long term support for Stable.. it is pretty much worthless for anybody that wants to make a real product based on Debian.

I've built small system images from both RedHat and Debian distros. It's _much_ easier to strip down the debian distro. The OLPC software fiasco had many causes, but I think that one of them was the problem of trying to balance between forking packages and living with the bloat.

Ditto. Debian is indeed much easier to work with on small systems.

Like I said before there are upsides and downsides. In the end it will probably be much easier to work with Fedora to sliming down their system and removing bloat then it is to get Debian to change their policies.

In this case I suspect that after a year or so all that 'based on Fedora' will mean is that it uses rpm packages, but the software itself will probably have very little in common with the then- current Fedora distro.

Yes. It would be unfortunate if the same thing that happenned to Maemo and Debian would happen to Fedora and Meego.

Of course Fedora folks already have a Moblin version of their OS out. So it is not like the Moblin and Fedora folks have had the same problems that the Maemo and Debian folks have had.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 1:14 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

I will also point out that RedHat used to support more architectures than they do now. They dropped them because they were more work to support than they were willing to expend. So far they have not shown indications that they want to start doing so again.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 5:38 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (4 responses)

You have no idea what you are talking about at all OLPC uses a stock
Fedora system with only the kernel being different and Fedora has ARM
support for quite sometime now

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 6:10 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

OLPC now uses a stock fedora process, but there have been many times when people attempted to trim bloat (very important on a machine with 1G flash and 256M ram) only to be told "but we have to do it this way because that's how it's done in Fedora"

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 6:17 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

Fedora is not a immutable system and OLPC folks have commit access to the
Fedora repository and can work with the maintainers to change things to be
suitable for both as they have done that many times in the past to the
point that nothing diverges except a few patches for the kernel and your
quote needs a citation

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 16:21 UTC (Wed) by sbishop (guest, #33061) [Link]

"... and your quote needs a citation"

And your post needs punctuation.

I'm sorry. It rhymed. I couldn't help myself. :)

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 26, 2010 22:13 UTC (Fri) by oak (guest, #2786) [Link]

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM

"CPU and Architecture Target
The baseline ARM CPU architecture that we have chosen to support is
ARMv5TE..."

Uh, that's not much of help on ARMv7 machines. Yes, the code runs, but it
doesn't really take advantage of the HW (NEON etc).

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 0:25 UTC (Wed) by mbanck (subscriber, #9035) [Link] (8 responses)

Note that the Meego people (mostly Dirk Hohndel and Arjen van de Ven) insisted that meego
was its own distribution and not Fedora-derived at all.

They are apparently using OBS (Open Build System) for autobuilding, packaging and patching.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 1:00 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (6 responses)

That sucks. Somebody needs to slap them.

They are not building a OS for a specific product so that approach is self-defeating.

Off all the things the world needs.. it is NOT another Linux distribution.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 3:35 UTC (Wed) by xanni (subscriber, #361) [Link] (4 responses)

"NOT another Linux distribution."

Why not?

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 13:47 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Because it's a huge waste of f*king time and resources, that's why.

They need to ask themselves:
What is the entire point behind MeeGo?

Is it to provide a compelling user experience with a slick UI, high quality mobile applications along with a solid set of application APIs along with a set of high quality development tools?

If that is the goal then why the hell are you going to spend your time screwing around with Udev rules, GCC patches, Glibc configurations, custom packages, kernel configurations, just a nother half-assed shitty OS installer and crap like that?

Waste of f-ing time and effort. Instead of concentrating on what is important your off screwing around with the same boring, error prone, tired crap that has been done over and over and over and over again. Dull and repetitive and it'll drive all your potential users and contributers away because nobody wants to deal with that crap. IT IS ALREADY DONE.

I mean Fedora and Ubuntu already have Moblin OSes out there. They are compliant, have the user land, follow the specifications. It's FINISHED. Already f-ing done.

So what MeeGo needs to do is work on the stuff people care about. They need to port over the Maemo 6 development environment and UI. They could be doing that TODAY. Get it running on Fedora or Ubuntu as quickly as possible and let users and application developers start doing what they do best... which does NOT include giving a shit about re-hashing a stupid installer or low-level Unix OS.

I mean seriously look at: http://distrowatch.com/ _waste_of_time_. If you want to have some project were you say "Hey I have my Own OS, look how cool I am!!" that is fine by me.. but if you want to make a compelling user environment for a commercial product that will get widely used and open up new markets for Linux then starting off by making your own Distro is about the worst possible thing you could possibly do.

Fedora has a shitload of developers. They have the attention of the Linux kernel development community, huge user base, high quality tools, high quality installers, high quality hardware support. Debugging infrastructure, the orginization is already setup....

All of this is already _DONE_. And they WANT you to use their system. They are screaming for people to use and improve their system. There is no hidden proprietary Goo. No Redhat holding them down. It's free and they want to work with you.

What is the chances of MeeGo distro ever acheiving the same level of oginization and resources for it's own distro? NONE. ZERO ZILTCH NADDA.

So MeeGo has the choice of using what is built and supported by others so they can start cranking away on creating the high quality UI, application, development tools and such that Linux has always needed to compete in the desktop or mobile environment commercially... or they can be another pointless half-assed distro screwing around with details that nobody cares about and have already been solved in a superior way by people with a hell of a lot more experience and resources.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:32 UTC (Wed) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (2 responses)

Because distros having multiple different distros was a bloody stupid idea to begin with. Fragmentation is a Bad Thing. Fragmentation in the UNIX market is what allowed the rise of Windows NT. It makes software development harder and it makes the deployment harder. A lot of documentation is useless, because it's written for a distro other than the one you are using. Tons of effort are wasted because different developers package the same packages over and over and over for different distros. And this also leads to stupid bugs like the debian openssl disaster or the recent bug in OpenSuse's screen locking thingy. Not to mention the fact that having fewer distros would make it a lot easier for users to pick one (Just watch the talk "The Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz, you can find it via a search engine of your choice (no pun intended)).

My personal belief is that eliminating 99.9% of all distros would increase linux adoption massively. And while we're at it, we might as well kill gtk+ in order to give developers a uniform platform to the develop for (Qt, that is). Sometimes less really is more.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 16:21 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

And choice? Choice is bad.

Thank goodness there is no central authority with the ability to do what you propose. Having multiple distros is a wonderful way to experiment with different packaging and system administration methods, or to customize the OS for particular domains. Yes, a lot are derivative or boring: but a lot aren't.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 18, 2010 21:52 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

And choice? Choice is bad.
So it is, if there is to much of it. And having literally thousands of distros is definitely too much.

Having multiple distros is a wonderful way to experiment with different packaging and system administration methods,
No, it's not. A uniform linux distribution for the desktop wouldn't stop anyone from developing, say, a new package manager or system administration tool. It would actually make things easier, because it would be possible to build and package a new tool so that *everyone* (almost) can take advantage of it. Imagine that: people could just use system-config-httpd to configure their apache web server. And if they don't like it, they remove it and install YaST instead. Having a uniform desktop linux distribution would actually give you *more* freedom, since you won't be constrained any longer by the selection of packages your distro has made for you.

or to customize the OS for particular domains.
Yes, this is why i spoke about eliminating 99.9% of all linux distributions and not about eliminating each one but one. I do see a point in having stuff like OpenWrt for embedded devices, or MeeGo for mobile devices. But having Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Mandriva, Fedora, Mint, MEPIS, Sidux etc. at the same time is utter nonsense.

The Free Software Mantra

Posted Feb 17, 2010 3:48 UTC (Wed) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Slap early, slap often.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 7:25 UTC (Wed) by wstephenson (guest, #14795) [Link]

I understant that they are using their own instance of the openSUSE Build
Service for building
the packages and the distro. NB that the OBS tool comes from openSUSE but
is not limited to building openSUSE distros.

http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 5:42 UTC (Wed) by arjan (subscriber, #36785) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't really understand what Fedora doing ARM has to do with Moblin or Maemo or Meego....

What Fedora does and what Moblin / Maemo / MeeGo do have nothing to do with eachother... at all.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 14:27 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

If your talking about making a new OS... then yeah. Moblin/Meego/Moblin has nothing to do with Fedora.

MeeGo should be doing absolutely nothing of the sort. They should be concentrating on stuff that is interesting and that is going to make it a commercial success. Trying to design a new operating system for cell phones and whatnot is exactly contrary to that that goal. They won't be able to do a good job and its a waste of resources.

They should be concentrating on creating UI improvements, good applications, standardized APIs, and high quality development tools that can run on existing, easily customizable, and established operating systems; like Fedora or Debian.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 2:32 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 6:11 UTC (Wed) by ajk (guest, #6607) [Link] (1 responses)

> It also means Debian's package repository, which is the largest on the planet, will be lost to the community.

You ought to be able to run Debian in chroot no matter what the underlying system is, as long as it's built on top of the Linux kernel on a supported ISA and you can get root access. (As far as I can tell, this is how native Debian packages are used on Maemo even now.)

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 18, 2010 0:08 UTC (Thu) by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497) [Link]

Some people do use chroots, yes.

Other people take Debian source packages and recompile them in Maemo's SDK,
producing native Maemo debs.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 11:05 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Put is simple terms, Nokia is ditching their own home grown distribution (Meamo) in favour of Intels Molbin. They are porting their Qt UI libraries and a few apps, but that is about it.

This is overly dramatic and even if you really want to see it that way, it looks like a good decision to join forces for something as dull as packaging and distributing software for a software stack so similar as Moblin and Maemo.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 2:42 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (2 responses)

One particularly annoying thing about MeeGo is the hardware enabling process has zero mention of the word "upstream":

http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 10:11 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Intel and Nokia have a proven track record of contributing upstream to the Kernel and other open source projects. It looks like they know what they are doing.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 20:19 UTC (Wed) by jku (subscriber, #42379) [Link]

This was an oversight in the document. I mentioned the issue to the author and the current version includes "MeeGo requires that submitted patches also be submitted to the appropriate upstream project and be on a path for acceptance".

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 10:53 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link] (7 responses)

The bickering about deb vs rpm and GTK vs Qt is quite annoying and it doesn't address the really interesting issues about Meego.

Nokia and Intel have a proven positive track record in the Linux community by now. Maemo seems to have been an experiment within Nokia to join the Open Source community as a good corporate citizen and hey, they did exceedingly well within the limits of their interal corporate politics. There must be a lot of internal conflict that the Maemo rebels have to battle within Nokia and they should be applauded for what they have achieved so far. Intel is also the poster boy of open source involvement and we OSS people easily seem to forget what an evil hardball monopolistic company Intel actually is: Well, yeah, they crush their competitors with illegal behaviour, but look, they publish source code...!

Moblin was announced in 2007 with a lot of thunder, but so far, did any company release an actual product based on it? (I haven't seen any, but would love to hear about anything.) Maemo has also seen a lot of positive PR, but at any given time during the last years, there was only one active product by a serious company. (*) So what we see here is the merging of two ambitious projects with only one device on sale by one company supporting that device.

On the other hand, Android got announced and within a very show time, has several devices by several different companies on sale, right now.

So where are the Meego products? Any announcements? Release dates? And which companies will develop for it, except Nokia and Intel? Where are the developer teams?

And how will Meego address the "Less than free" business model of Android?

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 10:57 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Oh, forgot the (*) - there is at least one obscure Maemo-product by an Asian company, but it seems to be a release-and-forget device with no additional software development after its release.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:40 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (4 responses)

Wasn't there a Dell netbook with Ubuntu's version of Moblin?

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:44 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link] (3 responses)

Ubuntu Netbook Remix is not Moblin, afaik.

Dell/Ubuntu netbook

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:58 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (2 responses)

It is indeed Moblin-based. Your editor reviewed it back in November.

Dell/Ubuntu netbook

Posted Feb 17, 2010 16:00 UTC (Wed) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Thanks for clarifying, my editor.

Dell/Ubuntu netbook

Posted Feb 21, 2010 2:55 UTC (Sun) by Burgundavia (guest, #25172) [Link]

Ubuntu Netbook Edition (formerly Remix) is not based on Moblin. It uses a bunch of tech developed in house at Canonical, including a launcher, some panel applets and a way of keeping windows maximized.

There is a moblin variant that was created for 9.10, but there has been no work in this cycle, that I can find. I believe that is the same work that LWN reviewed on a Dell, although not having played with it, I cannot say for certain.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 18, 2010 3:39 UTC (Thu) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955) [Link]

MSI is apparently going to be offering SLED+Moblin as an option on its U135 netbook.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 18, 2010 8:38 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

For those who prefer Debian-based systems, it appears that Debian folks will be packaging the MeeGo software and integrating it into Debian:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/threads.html...

Hopefully MeeGo-based hardware will allow you to install alternative operating systems and so on.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 18, 2010 17:56 UTC (Thu) by blitzkrieg3 (guest, #57873) [Link]

> There is no denying that mobile is top-priority target for the Linux
> community. Android, webOS, and ChromeOS fans may perceive MeeGo as a
> threat, but when one looks beyond the brand names, the playing field is no
> different than that on which desktop and server Linux distributions
> compete: all have access to the same kernel, the same graphics subsystem,
> utilities and toolkits. No competitor is at a technical disadvantage.

To Open Source/Free Software zealots (read, myself) there is "free as in freedom". The handset war between MeeGo and everyone else will play out the same way the desktop war between Linux and Microsoft/Mac played out. People like Randall Munroe will praise Android for being a great product and "ooh, it runs Linux", where people like me and rms will refuse to run proprietary apps and go with MeeGo. Add to that Google's rampant and uncontrollable forking when compared with the "upstream first" policy of MeeGo, and you have that subset of linux devels that will prefer MeeGo, even if it isn't as polished.

In that way it doesn't compete at all like other Linux distros. There is no distro that I know of that comes with a shiny proprietary "value add" stack with all the associated costs of devel and maintenance. And if you write an app for one Linux distro it is almost always portable with others. Not the case for WebOs or Android. (Interestingly enough, if you write an app for one distro it's probably portable to MeeGo, to say nothing of UI). Of course, the field is level in the sense that Google or Palm could at any time adopt MeeGo for their OS, but that would be like Microsoft adopting the Linux kernel for Windows 8.

MeeGo: the merger of Maemo and Moblin

Posted Feb 22, 2010 9:35 UTC (Mon) by Hanno (guest, #41730) [Link]

Interesting views from a Mer developer: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45213


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