I hope Google will really demand open source drivers for Chrome OS. It would make sense if they really want to use upstream kernels and be able to tweak the OS at every level and update it at will.
That could be the major blow to major suckage like the GMA500 (Intel, what were they thinking?) With that decision alone Intel dropped from "OK" to "totally blows and total no-go" for me. Beyond stupid.
Such a big company not able to produce half decent 3D chips? Their lack in that department has be obvious for what? A decade now? Clearly a management fail. There must have been some small chip maker that they could bought.
Sad thing would be no ARM ChromeOS computers(although ARM development hasn't even started yet) because ARM is PowerVR invested territory too .. but I guess you have to break eggs at some point.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 12, 2009 4:45 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333)
[Link]
> (Intel, what were they thinking?)
They needed a low power, low cost, high performance video chipset for the
embedded market. The laptop-style chipsets where you got GMA900+ GPUs use
up much more energy then the Atom processor does.
So licensing the Powervr core was probably much cheaper then designing a
new one. Intel had licensed other GPU designs from those folks in the
past. I think for their old 8xx series chipsets had a older PowerVR design
derivative. So this is nothing new from Intel's perspective.
-------------
Keep in mind that this is a common problem with All embedded Linux stuff.
The Beagle Board and N900 use similarly licensed PowerVR. I don't know of
one ARM platform that has open source 3D graphics.
So if there was a actual open source driver then it would be fantastic as
it could provide a common code base for many devices on multiple
architectures. But, alas, it does not seem like the PowerVR folks are
interested in it.
Not only PowerVR
Posted Dec 12, 2009 9:40 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091)
[Link]
Fine, they licensed PowerVR because they were cheap sods. But I believe the driver sucks in the 2D department as well? People would not complain too much otherwise, we have grown used to having poor 3D.
Not only PowerVR
Posted Dec 12, 2009 10:27 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333)
[Link]
I wouldn't be surprised if it sucked all around.
It's sad because the hardware is obviously useful and fairly powerful for
what it is, but it's crippled by proprietary drivers. For example it has
support, in Linux, for accelerating decoding and encoding of video that
would make my Core2Duo machine choke.
Just see the different demos. Do a Google Video search for 'Power SGX
Demos'
and you can see all sorts of fabulous performance that that hardware is
capable of on all sorts of different platforms. Accelerated video playback,
accelerated encoding, accelerated GL shaders, video games, fancy GL-driven
UI, etc etc. All of them running on hardware that is tiny, very
efficient, very cheap, and running Linux.
It actually does seem like top notch stuff. If it was not for the state of
the driver the combination of Linux + GMA500 + Atom would be a slam dunk
for Intel. Moblin would be dirt cheap to use and blow the doors off of any
other x86 platform in terms of efficiency and price for the performance.
Of course right now I would not touch any GMA500 hardware with a ten foot
pole, when it comes to purchasing decisions. It sucks. And ultimately it is
going to hurt people's efforts for Linux on ARM 'smartbooks' and cell
phones much more then it is going to hurt Intel.
Not only PowerVR
Posted Dec 12, 2009 13:14 UTC (Sat) by kragil (subscriber, #34373)
[Link]
Interesting. I can see how some stupid Intel execs could think that. And I know that a reliance on 100% FOSS would make Chrome OS computers on ARM impossible.
The current situation just sucks all around. ARM has only PowerVR and Tegra ... if only AMD/ATI hadn't given up on ARM GFX.
At the moment Google is the only tiny hope..
Not only PowerVR
Posted Dec 12, 2009 22:59 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Situation is not so hopeless. The proposed plan for Poulsbo is workable.
They're planning to create open source DRM, kernel modesetting and X.org 2D driver. So you'll have fully open source 2D accelerated desktop.
3D will be a closed driver based on Gallium3D. I.e. only a fairly small amount of userspace code will be closed. And in principle it won't be hard to reverse engineer it.
Not the perfect situation. But not completely doom&gloomy.
Not only PowerVR
Posted Dec 13, 2009 2:13 UTC (Sun) by kragil (subscriber, #34373)
[Link]
Very interesting. Do you have any current links?
From what I read (on the internet) that plan did not really materialize (was abandoned)
Not only PowerVR
Posted Dec 13, 2009 3:42 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
I mostly get info from reading IRC channels (dri-devel, etc.). As far as I understand, this plan is still a work-in-progress and certainly is not abandoned.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 12, 2009 14:33 UTC (Sat) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402)
[Link]
"I hope Google will really demand open source drivers for Chrome OS."
They won't. I hear the some of the first ARM netbooks will be Qualcomm Snapdragons, and Qualcomm are one of the most Free-unfriendly ARM implementors.
"It would make sense if they really want to use upstream kernels and be able to tweak the OS at every level and update it at will."
They haven't seemed terribly fussed about upstream with android.
"because ARM is PowerVR invested territory too"
Not so. ARM have their own Mali GPU (just as bad Free driver territory). Nvidia have their Tegra (which is even worse I think).
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 13, 2009 2:53 UTC (Sun) by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link]
I think Gallium3D -- once it's fully up and running and not essentially
preview-release technology -- might help a lot here. The biggest problem
with video hardware is that video hardware is insanely complex, and writing
drivers for video hardware (especially with 3D support) is equally insanely
complex. By far the most complex drivers there are. You're implementing a
full compiler for GLSL/HLSL, advanced memory management (which TTM/GEM just
aren't up to snuff with yet, but hopefully will be before too long),
complex user-space APIs, security controls... it's like writing a mini OS,
almost.
These drivers can make or break a hardware platform. ATI's hardware from
all reports is currently trouncing NVIDIA's, but NVIDIA has an absolutely
freaking fantastic set of driver developers. Even on Windows, I constantly
run into bugs and performance issues on ATI hardware while NVIDIA's
hardware has worked amazingly well on Windows (and Linux) for years now.
The problem, from a corporate perspective, is that if you have a great
driver, the last thing you want to do is give that driver source away. The
competitors having access to a great driver framework for video
acceleration would essentially level the playing field. If ATI had
NVIDIA's driver quality, NVIDIA might not even be around in a few years.
If all those little oddball graphics chips had the drivers that some of the
top-tier embedded graphics companies had, they'd pose a much larger threat.
The success of Open Source and Free Software in the corporate world has
almost always been around commodities, not Freedom itself. Companies
invest in Linux because it's made embedded OS development cheap and easy,
not because they actually give a damn about Freedom. Until video drivers
are as much of a commodity as disk drivers or network drivers or OS kernels
or web servers or interpreted languages or whatever, there is far more
incentive for a company to keep them closed -- and the keep the upper hand
-- than there is to give it away to a bunch of a people who aren't even
going to repay them with dollars, but are instead just going to port it to
some other vendor's hardware.
Gallium3D, being a cross-platform generic modern-day graphics driver
toolkit, may very well change things around. When there is a top-notch
GLSL front and middle end for Gallium3D, a top-tier memory manager, and an
API that makes hooking up a high-quality front and middle end API with a
tiny bit of per-hardware glue code, graphics drivers stand to become a
commodity. Once that happens, companies will no longer benefit from hiring
huge in-house driver teams and keeping their work locked up, because all
that will do is cost them more than just leveraging all the work already
done in Gallium3D.
There will always be holdouts. Broadcom, for example, still is totally
Linux-unfriendly with their wireless chips even though there are a
bazillion Free drivers for wireless already in Linux. That is no longer
normal, though. Just a few years ago, wireless in a Free/Open OS was a
chore. These days, so long as you avoid a handful of hold-out vendors,
you're pretty much golden with wireless. (Broadcom is, unfortunately, one
of the more popular vendors in common hardware, surpassed only by Intel, I
think.) NVIDIA will probably stay away from Open drivers for many years
even if Gallium3D becomes as much of a success as I hope, only because
NVIDIA is so far ahead of the curve that Gallium3D being a great success
won't actually close the gap; Gallium3D will have to pull off a small
miracle to really meet or surpass NVIDIA's team. Or the majority of users
will have to suddenly start caring more about Freedom than Functionality
and drop NVIDIA on principle (likely in the Linux world, very iffy in the
embedded world, highly unlikely for the majority of people who don't really
care about computers at all other than using them as tools to get things
done, especially where "things" equates to professional video/modelling or
gaming).
So far as people hating on Intel for this driver... get over it. Intel is
a huge company. No company that size is going to always make the best
decisions. Look at Sony. The PS3 division was working in complete
opposition to their Music and Movie divisions for many years (and still are
in ways, although at least the Movie division is pretty happy with the PS3
just for helping them crush HD-DVD in the market). Microsoft is in the
same boat; you have people and even whole divisions at Microsoft that are
all about real technology and are _actually_ all about developers and they
actually love the idea of Linux or Open Source, while other divisions wish
Open Source would disappear off the face of the earth. When you have
thousands and thousands of employees and more VPs than some mid-size
companies have total employees, it's only natural that your company's left
hand will be working against the right on a constant basis. The people at
the top are far more concerned with very broad, very general strategy than
they are with piddly specifics like licenses or development models.
Even if the CEO has an opinion on the matter, he really doesn't make those
decisions. Ballmer has next to no say in most of Microsoft's technology,
despite what a lot of the business-clueless Linux users think. Ballmer
actually has less say than he _should_ because he's not even that popular
with a lot of Microsoft's technical folks. Microsoft has been going
through a lot of internal upheaval since Gates left, because he was the
only exec that actually had any clout at all with the developers at the
company. I say this with a fair bit of insider knowledge, given that I
live across the street from Microsoft's main campus, my apartment complex
and every nearby complex or neighborhood is literally filled with people
who work at Microsoft, many of my professors are ex-Microsoft developers,
and quite a few of the people I know are currently employed by or contract
to Microsoft... and most of those people I've talked to are huge Linux fans
for the same reason many Linux users got into the OS in the first place
(development, development, development), although they (like me) have a
far, far more realistic view of Linux's shortcomings and Windows' strengths
than the average Linux fanatic fanboy, especially in the areas of Linux
being an actual contender on the desktop (hint: it's nowhere close and
isn't even moving in the right direction to get there). :)
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 13, 2009 3:43 UTC (Sun) by kragil (subscriber, #34373)
[Link]
Interesting comment (I even read all of it :)
I really hope you are right about Gallium, but it will probably take years for Gallium to penetrate the minds of all developers and execs.
I totally don't agree with you about Nvidia. They suck. Their cards suck (twice the transistors, half the speed, double the power) and their windows driver was responsible for the majority of Vista crashes (like 30% or 40% ..not 100% sure though) .. yeah great developers.
I hear how bad ATI drivers are supposed to be, but on Linux they are FOSS and on Windows they always worked for me the last few years.(I have been ATI exclusive since 9800) Today I would not use Nvidia.
And MS has a lot of cool people, no doubt. It is the negative effect the Windows monopoly has on the world that really pisses me off and makes me avoid them at all cost. But Windows is fine for certain people(Mostly Gamers not connected to the internet ;)
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 15, 2009 11:00 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576)
[Link]
>I totally don't agree with you about Nvidia. They suck. Their cards suck (twice the transistors, half the speed, double the power) and their windows driver was responsible for the majority of Vista crashes (like 30% or 40% ..not 100% sure though) .. yeah great developers.
Would that have been on x64 by any chance? I have noticed that the 64-bit drivers only really caught up with 32-bit in the last year or two, although I only noticed visual glitches and some performance issues in certain areas. The only crashes I've ever had in Vista were due to godawful drivers for one of those hateful Speedtouch monstrosities.
Nvidia cards do have a slightly lower performance per watt, though not by much if you compare like with like, but still win in terms of absolute performance.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 13, 2009 13:02 UTC (Sun) by modernjazz (guest, #4185)
[Link]
especially in the areas of Linux
being an actual contender on the desktop (hint: it's nowhere close and
isn't even moving in the right direction
to get there). :)
Can you expand on this? "Linux," as indeed you argued for any big company,
is not moving in a single direction, it's moving in many directions. Are
they all wrong?
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 15, 2009 11:06 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576)
[Link]
In the context of 'Desktop Linux', it really means Gnome, KDE, and the set of technologies which are (or would fit) under the freedesktop.org umbrella. I can't speak for the OP, but my perception is that these projects are still suffering from a terminal case of CADT sydrome (http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html - written in 2003, and just as accurate today).
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 13, 2009 16:15 UTC (Sun) by MarkWilliamson (guest, #30166)
[Link]
NVidia's Linux drivers are pretty good, I'm using them now. They do have
faults - AIUI they're somewhat wasteful of memory. The main "functionality"
thing that would move me away from them is if the Nouveau driver supported
enough 3D to run my composited desktop and basic GL apps successfully. With
Nouveau being merged into the mainline kernel, hopefully we'll see all
distros supporting it out-of-the-box instead of the nv driver soon. On top
of that it gets me nice features like kernel modesetting (and up-to-date
Xrandr although I can't say I'm that bothered about that!).
The "Just Works" aspect of having KMS + basic 3D out of the box would be
enough to pull me away from NVidia's closed drivers, even though they're
good. Hopefully we'll get there in a year or two, although by then I'll
likely be using ATI as they're ahead with this sort of thing now.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 17, 2009 15:56 UTC (Thu) by Spudd86 (guest, #51683)
[Link]
3d is still a ways off, since gallium is not yet stable/complete/fast
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 22, 2009 17:19 UTC (Tue) by daenzer (✭ supporter ✭, #7050)
[Link]
> [...] gallium is not yet stable/complete/fast
According to whom/what? While we are always improving the Gallium3D architecture, we've deployed several production-quality Gallium3D drivers (the gallium-0.[12] branches in the Mesa repository aren't there just for fun) and aren't aware of any such severe limitations.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 14, 2009 10:06 UTC (Mon) by Cato (subscriber, #7643)
[Link]
This is a really informative analysis that makes a lot of sense, at least the part about graphics drivers.
LWN editors: maybe you should ask elanthis to write a guest article on graphics drivers for Linux?
The only thing I'd add is that it's always the smaller players in any given market who go for open source (or adopt open standards) - only once there's a critical mass of open source supported hardware in that sector, driving down the costs and improving quality for these players, is the market leader (usually) forced to support open source to some degree.
On Poulsbo, I agree that people should not hate Intel for this, but they should keep up the pressure - if nobody complains, nothing will change.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 14, 2009 10:36 UTC (Mon) by kragil (subscriber, #34373)
[Link]
I guess nobody hates Intel. But complaining won't help very much. Voting with your wallet will. Avoiding buying from _currently_ FOSS-unfriendly vendors like Nvidia and Intel helps.
AMD/ATI has the better package anyways.(Unless you want low power ;)
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 14, 2009 13:24 UTC (Mon) by Cato (subscriber, #7643)
[Link]
Complaining and voting with your wallet is best, I think - if the Poulsbo product managers at Intel get complaints that say 'I bought a non-Poulsbo product because of this', it's much easier to build a business case to go open source and put pressure the third party vendor (PowerVR) to enable this.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 15, 2009 8:11 UTC (Tue) by liljencrantz (subscriber, #28458)
[Link]
Most people don't seem to be «hating on Intel for this driver», they openly criticize them and say that they avoid buying hardware from vendors with closed, shoddy drivers. This is putting market pressure on Intel, hopefully making them avoid another similar fiasco. Sure there are haters, but they seem to be in a small minority, and aren't even that vocal.
I agree with most of your comment, it's an interesting writeup on Galium3d, but putting that last sentence in with no backup whatsoever after such a well informed post smells of pure flaimbait/trolling in an otherwise excellent post. Are you trying to see if the walls of LWN are really made of asbestos?
The latest Ubuntu release is very quick, features a significantly better Internet browser out of the box together with an Office suite that looks and feels more like what people expect from MS Office than does Microsofts latest Office release (Not saying that is a good thing), is translated into more languages than Windows and has, out of the box, better hardware support, including 3g modems and wireless, than Windows. There are very few surprises, and while there are still a bit more bugs than is desirable there are very few surprises. I haven't used Windows in four years, but recently had to sit down with a Windows machine, and I can honestly say that from my perspective, the Linux experience is smoother. Even on a well administered machine, network login is still slow. Profile syncing still has issues. There are too few keyboard shortcuts, and they aren't customizable. No virtual desktops. Can't have a panel on each screen.
Poulsbo mess casts a shadow on Intel's Moblin project (ars technica)
Posted Dec 17, 2009 15:52 UTC (Thu) by Spudd86 (guest, #51683)
[Link]
Still doesn't explain why NVIDIA won't do what ATI does and release docs so people who want them can write their own free drivers.
Nouveau spent an awful lot of time and effort just figuring out how to talk to the hardware, if NVIDIA had just published docs we'd probably have had a free drm for NVIDIA hardware at least a year ago, (although 3d would probably still not be ready since it'd probably be gallium based, and gallium itself is not ready yet)