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Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal)Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal)Posted Nov 28, 2009 6:10 UTC (Sat) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953)In reply to: Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) by bjacob Parent article: Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal)
Boy I'm a fairly big believer in proper regulation but government has little right to interfere in private business transactions except where a trust is involved. Frankly if MySql ends up in the market and a Non-DB company buys them neither the EU or US will be able to block the transaction, even if that company is hostile to FOSS. Although I'm skeptical of Oracles intentions with MySQL it wouldn't surprise me if they move in and make it their low end offering for small businesses. Oracle makes a lot of money on consulting, I would wager without looking that it's more than they make selling software and the business of FOSS is about service, not sales and Oracle has proven themselves in supporting FOSS through their contributions and support. At the very least Oracle isn't an enemy of FOSS and that should be considered by the EU. The problem with the slow process is I believe that a few EU companies are probably interjecting themselves into the process to try to improve their own positions at the expense of SUN and Oracle it's a dirty reality of the EU processes that they give the appearance of being for sale (even if they aren't).
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Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 28, 2009 15:55 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Personally I don't see how it's anybody else's business what Sun and Oracle decide to do. Screw them both, they are just going to drag each other down.Frankly I don't think any of the USA government or EU's government business at all. Even if it was its not even remotely a anti-trust situation. If Oracle does not buy Sun then Sun is not going to be around later anyways. Sun Microsystems is a _DYING_ corporation. Its been mismanaged into the ground. Either you let Oracle buy Sun and you end up with Oracle/Sun.. or you just end up with Oracle and no Sun. Pick your choice. At 100 million dollars a day all the EU folks are doing is just being huge f-ing dicks. No respect, no concept at all. If they did care, if they did have respect for those companies and those employees they would of made up their mind already one way or another. The regulators are a bunch of self- righteous assholes, really. I am sure that they are sitting their trying to figure out how to manipulate Oracle into giving cheaper licenses to their member states and favored EU-based corporations without being blatant about it. Its bad enough that American companies have to deal with the self-serving and hypocritical machinations of the United State's Republican and (especially) Democratic political parties now they have to deal with same exact sort of jerks that have successfully marketed, financed and manipulated their way into power with the European States. ----------------------------------------- As far as MySQL goes... who gives a shit? Its a open source database product licensed under the GPL and thus is completely immune from Oracle fingering it. Worst case is that you'd have to use a different name for Debian's package. Like "IceSQL" or some silly BS. Sure it may affect people that depend on it for proprietary software. but that is OK.. this is normal for those sorts of folks and should teach them a lesson. I've seen dozens of examples of people depending on third party proprietary software only to have the rug pulled out from under them one way or another. This is why people should stop falling for those sorts of traps.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 28, 2009 16:42 UTC (Sat) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]
I think there was some argument at the beginning of the posting, but it
quickly got drowned in loads of swear words and rants...
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 28, 2009 17:19 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] The whole situation is just supremely irritating. I'll try to be nicer so that I don't offend your ears.1. It's nobody else's business what Oracle and Sun decides to do besides Oracle, Sun, and their investors. 2. Sun is dying and is going away one way or another. Either you let Oracle buy them or Sun will continue to melt down for another decade or so and eventually sell off everything to a dozen companies. Then you just have Oracle by itself with a bunch of Sun's copyrights and software patents floating from lawyer group to lawyer group. 3. MySQL, in at least as much as Free software folks is immune to Oracle's manipulation. That's one of the fundamental advantages to "Free software", right? : Independence from Vendors. Most of the important people involved in MySQL never worked for Oracle or Sun. 4. People who depend on third party proprietary software (like commercial MySQL license) should be used to being screwed over by now. I've seen this before, personally, with a company that used Fox Pro database software and related items when Microsoft bought that company out. (Paraphrasing here) ISV to Financial Company: We are no longer able to provide support for the database software you based your entire IT infrastructure on. Financial Company to ISV: WTF? We pay you lots and lots of money, you no longer want to stay rich supporting our crappy software? ISV to Financial Company: We are no longer allowed to support your software. However we will give you a 20,000 dollar discount if you decide to switch to Microsoft MSSQL and Windows 2000 in the next 4 months. Have a nice day. Financial Company: *cry* ISV + Microsoft: * counts money while giggling quietly. So this thing happens over and over again. If people have not figured why they should work in supporting and using free software yet they are not going to and deserve what Oracle does to them.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 28, 2009 20:25 UTC (Sat) by bjacob (subscriber, #58566) [Link] "It's nobody else's business what Oracle and Sun decides to do besides Oracle, Sun, and their investors."Well, that's a pure libertarian credo; the rest of the world thinks that markets need some level of regulation; how much regulation depends on everyone's opinions, but I don't know a single country that doesn't have laws to control mergers. "MySQL, in at least as much as Free software folks is immune to Oracle's manipulation. That's one of the fundamental advantages to "Free software", right?" But there's much more to Free Software than a license, there's the team of developers behind the code. Having mought MySql, Oracle can disrupt that team in many creative ways. The GPL only allows people to continue using/developing MySQL under the same GPL license. So for example, Oracle can still kill MySql's double licensing strategy, removing its financial independence. If a team wanted to fork it, the copyrights would still belong to Oracle so they would have to ask Oracle for permission for any licensing issue; not to mention the effect on the developers team's morale, etc. Again, disclaimer: I don't know specifics about MySql, but what I'm saying here is general common sense.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 29, 2009 18:25 UTC (Sun) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link] Well, that's a pure libertarian credo; the rest of the world thinks that markets need some level of regulation; how much regulation depends on everyone's opinions, but I don't know a single country that doesn't have laws to control mergers. Indeed. Although it's tempting to think that "only the shareholders should get to decide because it's their company", the whole point in having governments and regulators is to make sure that society doesn't lose out when transactions like this have an impact on a market. But there's much more to Free Software than a license, there's the team of developers behind the code. Sun's management should know all about the issues of building communities around Free Software (or failing to do so), and the ownership of the code is always a factor because the licensing builds on this. However, the principal impact of the ownership changes (and any licensing changes) is on those who wish to make Sun/Oracle-sanctioned proprietary derivatives of MySQL. If a team wanted to fork it, the copyrights would still belong to Oracle so they would have to ask Oracle for permission for any licensing issue; not to mention the effect on the developers team's morale, etc. If someone forks the GPL-licensed version of MySQL, they can just get on with it. The FSF's objection did touch upon the issue of GPLv3 relicensing, which would be a positive thing (in my opinion) since it merely strengthens the provisions from GPLv2, but the people forking MySQL do get to choose their own licence combinations (GPLv2-compatible plus anything else that might ultimately be appropriate) and don't have to assign their copyrights to Oracle. The result of this would be that Oracle wouldn't be able to use their work in a proprietary product without a deal being struck, and some movement on both sides could be possible. This is all separate from whether the regulators should stipulate anything before this merger is completed, however. I don't really care about proprietary vendors having to renegotiate licensing terms with Oracle, but if the regulators think that this disrupts business in their jurisdiction, it's obviously their choice to do something about the matter. Companies doing business in a place must generally comply with whatever the laws and regulations of that place happen to say, like it or not.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 30, 2009 19:38 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Indeed. Although it's tempting to think that "only the shareholders should get to decide because it's their company", the whole point in having governments and regulators is to make sure that society doesn't lose out when transactions like this have an impact on a market.The whole point of a Federal government should be to protect against foreign aggressors and to deal with interstate trade regulations. Most everything else should happen on a much more local level since Democracy does not scale. Local politics are something that individuals can control and have influence over... trying to do that for entire continents is just delusional. If it was not for our governments propping up, creating contrived legal environments to protect the profitability of large corporations, then things like ATT's monopoly, or Microsoft's hedgemony, or the old Railroad barons from the last century would not of been possible at all. In almost all these sorts of cases it's a government created problem with people crying about corporation the ones being evil. It's the corporations working with the corrupt government to further each other's interests over the interests of the country. In _this_specific_case_ (which is what _I_ was talking about above) it's nobody's business because it's a highly competitive market. There are at least 4-5 other major companies that offer server hardware and/or enterprise database software and such things. Sun Microsystems is exiting the market one way or another and preventing Oracle from buying them is no way going to create a more competitive or consumer friendly environment. What is Oracle going to do to hurt you and limit your freedom? Send shock troops into your house to stomp your kittens or something? What is the EU protecting you from? But there's much more to Free Software than a license, there's the team of developers behind the code. And who are the major contributors to MySQL? Who were the ones that created it? Do _they_all_ work for Sun? No.. I don't think so. Sun Microsystems has no more of a monopoly over open source database developers then I do. If Oracle goes out of their way to hurt MySQL and there is no GPL'd fork to continue development of that software then it is the failure of the open source development model and not some government regulation committee's fault.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Dec 1, 2009 14:21 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link] The whole point of a Federal government should be to protect against foreign aggressors and to deal with interstate trade regulations. Most everything else should happen on a much more local level since Democracy does not scale. I said nothing about the kind of government or the level of government, but just that governments and regulators are there to, well, govern and regulate. The idea, in principle if not in practice, is to stop the rich people deciding what happens all the time. What is Oracle going to do to hurt you and limit your freedom? Send shock troops into your house to stomp your kittens or something? I'm not arguing against the merger. Maybe you should ask Monty and friends the same questions. What is the EU protecting you from? Well, the EU can be quite the predatory force, and so it's necessary to always be vigilant where it is concerned, especially given the democratic deficit and the tendency for corporate lobbying, being wined and dined by people with expensive yachts, and so on. In this case, I doubt the EU is protecting me from anything, but it's the job of the regulator to investigate whether there is a need to protect participants in a market. If Oracle goes out of their way to hurt MySQL and there is no GPL'd fork to continue development of that software then it is the failure of the open source development model and not some government regulation committee's fault. Which is why I didn't argue that there was any particular threat to Free Software developers. The only negative aspect of any potentially hostile change in ownership is that a better licence will not likely be chosen, and that could have an impact in the long term, but relicensing is a problematic area for many projects, anyway. The best way to undermine the arguably selfish motives of those criticising the deal would be for Oracle to bump the licensing to GPLv3. That way, the founders of MySQL, whose argument would seem to be grounded in them wanting to make proprietary or permissively-licensed derivatives of the software, would be more obviously isolated and exposed. It would also take the wind out of the regulators' sails.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Dec 4, 2009 2:17 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]
> The whole point of a Federal government should be to protect against
> foreign aggressors and to deal with interstate trade regulations.
While this may be the major US-American view, we, in Europe, see this differently. Maybe you should, at some point in your life, understand that the world has not the USA's world views at its center, even though it may be very hard to understand and accept. Or, maybe not, no need to consider. Since your country's economy seems going down the drain anyhow with your military spending madness, we'll get out the wine&cheese (which hobo ever thought that popcorn is something to celebrate with?) and wait.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 30, 2009 21:27 UTC (Mon) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]
I disagree with drag on this one. But if you got derailed by "swear words" you really need to
chill recognize that words are just words. If one or two expletives, included for emphasis, causes you to reel, and lose track of what someone else is saying, then perhaps you are spending more time in church than is good for you.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 28, 2009 20:25 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] The regulators are a bunch of self-righteous assholes, really. I am sure that they are sitting their trying to figure out how to manipulate Oracle into giving cheaper licenses to their member states and favored EU-based corporations without being blatant about it.Hardly! The member states largely hate the EU competition authorities, because they have a habit of slapping their wrists and saying no, you cannot provide this huge benefit to your pet 'national champion' companies. Competition policy is one of the few areas where the EU actually works and pretty much the only one where it's arguably the world leader.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Nov 28, 2009 20:40 UTC (Sat) by bjacob (subscriber, #58566) [Link]
Just wanted to say, that I 100% agree with your reply. If anything works well in the EU, it's the competition authorities. Also, before accusing them of puting American companies at a disadvantage, keep in mind that if the US regulators had done their own job, which was to require Oracle to clarify the situation wrt MySql, this issue would never have had to be brought up at the EU authorities.
Senators Nudge EU On Sun (Linux Journal) Posted Dec 7, 2009 20:41 UTC (Mon) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link]
"Competition policy is one of the few areas where the EU actually works and pretty much the only one where it's arguably the world leader."
How is holding up a decision on the merger helping competition? Being the "world leader" on government regulation is not something I'd be proud of.
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