The Grumpy Editor's Moblin review [LWN.net]

Linux users before Linux existed

Posted Nov 26, 2009 23:11 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

It didn't say they were Linux users at the time they used workspaces. It's a statement about present Linux users. "Have been using" refers to a present property, much like "have experience with."

That's the subtle difference between simple past ("I roller skated") and past participle ("I have roller skated") that people often have trouble grasping. The latter is actually a statement about the present -- as influenced by the past.

Linux users before Linux existed

Posted Nov 27, 2009 0:26 UTC (Fri) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link]

Ok, this is kinda silly to talk about, I do realize this, but the writing is normally so good here that I can't resist. This is the original sentence:

These are really just the virtual desktops or workspaces that Linux users have been using since before Linux existed.

This is poorly written. There are three main problems here:

They couldn't possibly have been using Linux before Linux existed, which is the simplest/obvious interpretation of that sentence.
A modern Linux user is not at all guaranteed to have been using X pre-Linux.... or, for that matter, to even have been alive yet.
If one interprets the sentence correctly, he's mixing present-time use of Linux with past use of the X Window System.

What matters is that they were X users back in the antediluvian times, and that's how the sentence should really be worded. As written, it's sort of correct, some of the time, if you jump around between two separate time periods and two different software packages, but it's both confusing and a real stretch. It requires only a single-word edit to instantly become clear and completely true, to wit:

These are really just the virtual desktops or workspaces that X users have been using since before Linux existed.

Heh, can you tell I'm a little bored? :)

Linux users before Linux existed

Posted Nov 27, 2009 1:30 UTC (Fri) by mp (subscriber, #5615) [Link]

Sleepiness apparently weakens my OT-defences. So, out of curiosity, would you consider a sentence about "something that my father has been using since before I was born" to be poorly written as well?

Linux users before Linux existed

Posted Nov 27, 2009 1:42 UTC (Fri) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link]

"something that my father has been using since before I was born"

Looks fine to me. It's clear that it was the same user, and the same thing that was being used, you're just putting a time qualifier in. "Something that my father has been using since 1953" is a perfectly acceptable noun + modifiers. "Before I was born" is a more approximate time modifier, but lexically similar, and appears to be a drop-in replacement for a date.

Note that in the case of Linux and X, he's changing both what was being used (Linux or X) and the timeframes they were being used (now and in the past) within a single sentence, but using the same word for what's being used. You're not doing that in your example here. :)

Linux users before Linux existed

Posted Dec 3, 2009 12:37 UTC (Thu) by ccurtis (guest, #49713) [Link]

Since we're being pedantic: I am a Linux user. I was using virtual desktops on SunOS before I ever used Linux. Therefore, Moblin zones are just the virtual desktops that I (Linux user) have been using since before Linux existed. [1]

Ultimately, I think the sentence is simply the grumpy editor being grumpy ... and dating himself.

[1] In reality, my virtual desktop experience probably began in 1993, up to 2 years after Linux was unleashed onto the world; anachronisms aside, I think the point remains.