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LWN web designLWN web designPosted Nov 9, 2009 15:00 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796)In reply to: LWN web design by kragil Parent article: KS2009: How Google uses Linux
In what way is the LWN.net design not »good«? It does what it is supposed to do in a very unobtrusive way -- unlike many of the newer sites. Not chasing after the latest visual fashions does not automatically make its layout, fonts, and colours »bad«. Exactly what about these do you think is keeping new users away? (Having said that, table-based layout isn't exactly the done thing these days, but you only addressed »layout, fonts, and colours«, not HTML-level implementation, and as far as I'm concerned there's nothing whatsoever wrong with those. Also, registered users can tweak the colours to their own liking, and it probably wouldn't be impossible to allow the fonts to be tweaked, too.) I'm sure that the LWN.net team will welcome constructive hints as to how to improve the LWN.net »experience« without giving up the strengths of the site, i.e., no-frills Linux info and commentary. For the time being, however, I'd much rather Jon & co. spend their time on giving us the best Linux news possible than chase the newest fads in web design. After all, people come here for the content, not to see great web design.
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LWN web design Posted Nov 9, 2009 15:57 UTC (Mon) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
I never said anything about coming here for great web design, just about not thinking geocities is still alive.
And I am no web designer, but AFAIK you can do a lot of nice stuff with just CSS (even rounded corners etc.). A lot of small changes done by a professional would certainly add up. And it would still be backwards compatible and no-frills.
Just read a few comments on the link above to look beyond your little bubble.
LWN web design Posted Nov 9, 2009 16:46 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] Right. Rounded corners. Rounded corners will definitely make all the difference! Honestly, if you can't come up with better suggestions than this ... I just had a look at the comments on the Digg article you quoted above and I'm not convinced that encouraging that sort of crowd to come here is something Jon & co. should spend time and energy on. If the web design is what keeps them away then I would surely recommend keeping things as they are. (Incidentally, looking at the Digg site itself, I'll take current LWN.net over the Digg design any day, thank you very much. Maybe it's just me, but I like my fonts readable and navigation where I can actually find it. Also very incidentally, unlike you I in fact pay LWN.net money every month so they can keep doing what they are doing so well. I wonder how many of the Digg users you revere so much would -- even if LWN.net looked like Digg?)
LWN web design Posted Nov 9, 2009 23:26 UTC (Mon) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
Again, I never said LWN should work, look or do anything like digg and only mentioned rounded corners as one of the more advanced things you can do with CSS. You can also do gradients, text shadows etc and a lot more stuff. Google is your friend here. I guess you read what you want to read.
I just think a more professional more modern look that appeals to _more_ people (not just digg users) and makes a good impression has no downsides, but a lot of people hate change and want to do and have things the same until eternity. Fine I guess that is how life conditions them in the long run, I just happen to have a less conservative attitude and most websites that never change and don't adapt have a good change of dying, even with the big stream of money you send their way.
LWN web design Posted Nov 9, 2009 23:40 UTC (Mon) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link] most websites that never change and don't adapt have a good change of dyingYes, but that adaption doesn't necessarily have to come in the form of the latest design trends. Objectively speaking, LWN is perfectly usable. What you're objecting to is LWN's not following web fashion. Not following web fashion hasn't seemed to hurt craigslist, despite the existence of many more hip competitors.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 0:22 UTC (Tue) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
I never visited craigslist until now, but I think the reason for their continued success is the big userbase, even langpop uses CL as a data source. And you could say they have a super minimalistic design (no pics, just standard link colours and nothing else, although for cologne they have a little de for Germany next their name.So they have design. LWN not so much)
LWN web design Posted Nov 13, 2009 1:11 UTC (Fri) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link] I just noticed the program "Marketplace":Marketplace... Craig's List. Without the Ugly.I agree with the other comments that LWN could do with some sprucing up. It doesn't really bother me that it's currently ugly, I still read (and pay for) it. But I wouldn't mind it being nicer, either, and it might keep other readers from running in terror.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 0:10 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] If your resources are limited (as LWN.net's are) it makes sense to stay away from stuff that is essentially eye candy for people who must always have the latest and greatest, and concentrate on stuff that benefits all your readers, like compelling content. If I was in charge of HTML/CSS development for LWN.net, I would consider some changes but they would not in the first instance touch the visual appearance -- I would probably move to a purely CSS-based (instead of table-based) layout to make the site more accessible. I might change some of the visual design but only to improve readability, not to make substantial changes to the layout as it appears. IMHO, such changes would be worthwhile but they would not be changes for change's sake the way you seem to be advocating. (Feel free to suggest anything specific that will actually improve the reader's experience if you can think of something.) As far as Google is concerned, when the site was new it looked completely unlike all the other search engines precisely because it went back to the basics and presented essentially a logo, text entry widget and search button. In spite of this »conservative attitude« it still went on to become the most popular search engine on the planet. Again, it was the content that made the difference, not the (lack of) bling; people were attracted more by the good results Google produced than they were turned off by the straightforward appearance. Also, in spite of not changing its appearance substantially during the last decade or so, www.google.com isn't likely to go away anytime soon, either. Finally, the »big stream of money« from subscribers is, to a large degree, what keeps LWN.net going. Jon & co. may, in fact, be very interested in updating their web design but perhaps they can't afford to spend the time or money at this moment. So if you want them to be able to contemplate non-essential tasks like HTML/CSS hacking, instead of whining about how LWN.net will go away if they don't »adapt« you should really contribute to their bottom line by taking out a subscription, which will certainly have a much greater impact than any amount of whining.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 1:11 UTC (Tue) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
Well, sometimes you have to spend money to earn it.
And I suggested that you google for CSS capabilities and designs.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 10:51 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] This is getting silly. If you can't point to anything specific and constructive that you would actually change to improve LWN.net other than »use rounded corners, they're cool« this must mean that the site isn't so bad to begin with, so I'll politely and respectfully suggest you shut up.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 12:06 UTC (Tue) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
Again you don't listen. My suggestion: (I spell it out especially for you because you seem to be unable to grasp simple stuff.(Disrespect goes ways))
Get a good web designer that knows modern web design (page layout, usability, style, colours, logo etc.) and have him/her improve the crappy first impression this site makes. That may or may not include rounded corners. I don't know as I am not a web designer as I already mentioned and explained that that was just one tiny technical example, which still does not fit into your brain. All I know is that this sites design (unprofessional logo with green font, annoying flashy ads, black,red or blue text, grey and orange boxes, no advanced CSS etc.) undeniably makes a bad impression, which does not help anybody.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 12:31 UTC (Tue) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link] Another cup of Open Source, anyone?
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 12:33 UTC (Tue) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link] My original point, if I may flesh it out a bit, is that the kind of person bothered by LWN's layout probably won't get much out of LWN's content in the first place. LWN's attraction to me is the deep, literate, and mature coverage, and to a lesser extent, the informative and useful comment section. I couldn't care less how the site looks, and would be just as happy (no, happier) if I could read it over NNTP. Changing lwn.net to pander to the Digg crowd would compromise what makes LWN worthwhile in the first place. Franky, the kind of person who judges a site based on how Web 2.0 it is would find the articles here boring, and would post vapid comments saying so. It'd be an Eternal September.
LWN web design Posted Nov 10, 2009 12:40 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
This idea may be absolutely unthinkable to you, but it is actually possible to appreciate good design without being a sub-literate fool, despite what your prejudices may lead you to feel.
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