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sysfs is dumb - that dependssysfs is dumb - that dependsPosted Oct 18, 2009 1:37 UTC (Sun) by jageorge (guest, #61413)In reply to: sysfs is dumb by quotemstr Parent article: Infrastructure unification in the block layer
Sysctl under Linux is just a wrapper around /proc... and I'm not saying that the BSD guys got it wrong, but sysfs IS the strategic direction already taken by Linux. However, there are clearly problems with the status quo especially when it comes to atomic operations. Both of my proposals (multi-element sysfs nodes, and process private staging sysfs directory) are compatible with the evolving direction of Linux system resource management from userspace.
The scriptability issue around my private staging tree proposal is easily addressable by using some sort of token (futex/mutex/semaphone) based approach to opening the staging directory instead of a purely PID based approach. Perhaps I'll try a kernel patch to illustrate what I mean ... if I can drum up some interest.
One way or the other private staging of atomic operations (whether ioctl() or some variation on my proposals) is essential for certain operations, and trying to avoid it _will_ result in race conditions many of which have security implications as well... now that I think about it token based private directories would be cool from a temporary directory perspective as well especially if the OS automatically reaped the result after the last token holder exited... so many cool implications... :-)
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sysfs is dumb - that depends Posted Oct 18, 2009 20:03 UTC (Sun) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link] sysfs IS the strategic direction already taken by LinuxIt does seem that we're stuck with it for now, though it could be deprecated as many other interfaces have been. So I agree, there's a need for atomic operations on sysfs. Your ideas seem over-engineered to me though. What's wrong with the following scheme? An application would create a temporary directory anywhere it liked. Under this temporary directory, an application would create a sysfs tree corresponding to the nodes to change, and after that, would write the name of the temporarily directory to a new special file, /sys/commit. If the commit is successful, the kernel would remove the temporary directory; if there's an error, it would leave the directory in place and return an error from write, or leave an error file in the temporary directory describing what went wrong. This scheme doesn't require any new system calls or VFS infrastructure, and it's shell-script compatible.
sysfs is dumb - that depends Posted Oct 19, 2009 14:40 UTC (Mon) by jageorge (guest, #61413) [Link]
Your suggest is essentially where I started, but there appear to be a couple of potential issues. 1. The commit from physical file system to sysfs seemed as if it could be expensive and/or racy. 2. Anything that exists in the normal file system environment is potentially vulnerable from a security/race (even multiple instances of the same monitoring/management software) standpoint.
Nevertheless, I don't want to over-complicate the implementation, and it is possible that there are already security facilities in the kernel which could serve to isolate something as process private. Furthermore, I agree that shell scripting should be relatively simple with any solution to this problem... to some extent that's one of the key ideas behind sysfs. An obvious first step would be to stage something without resolving the private view security question... perhaps even something like staging from a normal physical file system and using mv to flatten the directory structure into a text file which would be fed into a writable sysfs inode.
Basically the problem space is pretty clear (non-trivial atomic operations on IO devices) as is the high level of how to address it (sysfs nodes in the correct context which manage security and race problems). Once someone (possibly me) creates an implementation I expect many of the details to fall into place pretty quickly... and then it's just a matter of getting it past Greg and Al (shudder). The sad thing is that after 6 years of sysfs/udev as a "production" solution no one has done anything other than ducking the problem.
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