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Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica)Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica)Posted Oct 14, 2009 9:36 UTC (Wed) by freealter (guest, #4335)In reply to: Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) by donbarry Parent article: Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica)
We are in face of 2 freedoms :
* the freedom of use, enhance, distribute software. GPL (including V2) guarantees that. * on the other end, for copyright holders of content, some have the will (that we can not like, but it is their freedom) to protect their content. And DRM is the solution corresponding to this will. Do we want Linux users to be cut from these specific copyrighted materials for always ? Starting from there, you need to have a chain of trust starting at boot time, till the execution of the player application. So yes, we have to accept DRM and TPM and all these awful technologies on linux. Or maybe we just want to stay at 1.2% of the desktop market. Nokia is right.
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Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 10:05 UTC (Wed) by oever (subscriber, #987) [Link]
These two freedoms are at odds. To establish this 'chain of trust' or to name it better 'chain of
user control' one needs to run signed binaries. These binaries are provided and signed by the content providers or a representative of them. The owner of the device has no control on the content of these binaries. At best it is possible to replay the exact method of creating the binary and verifying that it was created from a certain set of sources. Tooling to do this verification does not currently exist.
DRM from boot time removes all the freedoms FOSS promises the user of the device. It does
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 13:12 UTC (Wed) by freealter (guest, #4335) [Link]
No, it is a user choice (at least for the Nokia device). Either you wish to be able to modify, change, ... software, and you can (that's what I understood from the article) and then, ok, you will not be able to see the DRM protected content, or you want them and then you have to stick with the software configuration.
In fact, in an ideal world, what should be signed would be : the kernel, the X layer (or equivalent), some libraries and the display software, it would be enough. It may be easier to sign a full partition.
Once again, we may regret that, but we can not blaim content providers to try to protect their content. And with software it is really difficult and complicated (impossible ?). So "chain of trust" and DRM is the best bet so far.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 13:52 UTC (Wed) by viiru (subscriber, #53129) [Link]
Uh? What do you mean we can't blame content providers for using DRM? They aren't doing it because the law requires them to...
DRM might be the best bet so far, but it doesn't actually work, and can't actually work. Any content which can be seen or heard by the user can also be copied. Always, no matter what. All that DRM can do is make it more complicated and/or inefficient to do it. (proof: what stops me from pointing my video camera at a tv showing a DRM'd movie?)
How about we just keep working on getting rid of the lie that is DRM and use our horrible illegal dvd players while the madness passes.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 14:07 UTC (Wed) by freealter (guest, #4335) [Link]
Yes we can blame content provider for using DRM. I absolutely agree that it is a technical dead-end, that it has no meaning, that it is idiot, ... I used your exact argument (if you can see it ...) 12 years ago in Thomson Multimedia. But the DRMs are there. They are used, and for video I think that they are going to stay for long. Even if the DVD protection system is dead, it is still used and will continue. So the DRM for streaming are very common and will stay.
So if we want to have linux users having access to these contents, and it becomes to be very important, we must have a legal, technical answer. As Nokia does.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 14:44 UTC (Wed) by viiru (subscriber, #53129) [Link]
As long as the answer means giving up all the advantages of free software, I can't say I'm very interested. Then again the model described in the article would allow the user to choose either DRM or freedom, which is acceptable and much better than the alternative case in which complicated jailbreaking and reverse engineering efforts are needed to get to use the hardware.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 15, 2009 0:33 UTC (Thu) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] Uh? What do you mean we can't blame content providers for using DRM? They aren't doing it because the law requires them to... No, they are doing it because of massive unlicensed use of their copyrighted works. Sure, you can blame the "content providers" for DRM, but you should also blame those sucking down torrents of unlicensed works. In the face of that, content providers feel forced to do something, even if that something doesn't work. As for content providers having the wrong business model for the digital age, that is true. But the content providers would have got the hint sooner if their sales had plummeted without the excuse that sales were being drained off by unlicensed copies.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 11:39 UTC (Wed) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] the freedom of use, enhance, distribute software. GPL (including V2) guarantees that.Unfortunately not, or at least, not combining one or more of these. If you have a locked-down device that only runs signed binaries, then you can use the software on it, and you can download source code from somewhere and enhance it, but there is no way to change the software and then use your changed version. Similarly, you may be able to distribute the changed code to others, but they will not be able to use it on their device. This is despite the intention of the GPLv2 which is that you should be able to run, share, and change the software freely.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 13:23 UTC (Wed) by freealter (guest, #4335) [Link]
In the absolute (TPM + DRM) I agree with you. In the case of the Nokia device, I don't. They allow to run another OS image with whatever you want.
But the crucial question is not there. Do we want to have a legal blue-ray player on Linux one day ? One that we can give legally to any administration of any country ? Yes ? Then we will have to use TPM, chain of trust, ...
And if we don't we will continue to have funny remarks such as : "what is the last innovation in your linux ? You have a legal DVD player ! Wow ! I am impressed !". And nice (proprietary, closed sources) competitors will continue to take the market.
So open source must not be incompatible with these technologies on a purely philosophical/ideological basis.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 14:42 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link] > Do we want to have a legal blue-ray player on Linux one dayNo, actually, not really. It would be really nice to have a 100% foolproof *unlicensed* blue-ray player on Linux, though. I'm still waiting for that... One thing that makes DVD players so great on Linux is that they don't follow the hateful "User- operation-prohibited" flags that DVD players are required by their license to follow. The other thing is that you can extract the data, recompress it, and store it on your hard drive for easier playing without needing the physical disc. If it could only just do exactly what a standalone DVD player could do, and no more, it hardly seems worthwhile.
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 14:47 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
> * on the other end, for copyright holders of content, some have the will
> (that we can not like, but it is their freedom) to protect their content. > And DRM is the solution corresponding to this will. Do we want Linux users > to be cut from these specific copyrighted materials for always ? Starting > from there, you need to have a chain of trust starting at boot time, till > the execution of the player application.
"Freedom" to restrict and control others and threaten people with legal
If you make a MP3 or other digital file you are certainly should be allowed
DRM, according to the laws of reality and the universe*, is a fundamentally
Since the goal of DRM is to restrict the users and prevent them from
So how DRM really works is through a combination of legal threats,
That is if you do not obey the DRM requirements they will sue you and if
THAT is DRM. That is how technologically enforcemed DRM really works. To
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 15:45 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]
> That is if you do not obey the DRM requirements they will sue you and if
> you do not obey and keep fighting them to the end they eventually will send > armed men into your house, take you away from everything you ever achieved > and loved, and throw you into a cage.
The funny thing, of course, is that this works just as well *even without* the technical measures
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 15:57 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Yes. The technical measures are designed to put the restrictions into the
category of digital copyright restrictions as required by the DMCA laws.
It is still perfectly legal to have the means and discuss cracking _analog_
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 17:50 UTC (Wed) by freealter (guest, #4335) [Link]
As long as we do nothing, all people that :
* need a totally legal system, * need to look at these hated, useless, idiot DRM protected content, will not be able to use linux.
We can stay between us, nice, clever, honnest geeks. We will stay around 1.2% of the whole desktop offer. Or we can try to give users what they are wishing for and catching up the market share. Then we will have very nice arguments to show that DRM are useless and evil. But we can not exclude us from the market only on ideas, as good as they are.
By the way I find your terms excellent "through a combination of legal threats, blackmail, and pure obfuscation". Very thoughtfull on DRM. Thanks, I will use it on occasions.
I just want you to consider not a "random" user, but anybody that has not any other choice than to respect the law. Somebody from any government for instance. Linux must be vorbidden to them for ever ? Because any illegal code (decss, ...) is impossible for them. There must be a legal option. And philosophy is not going to display a DRM content on a screen ...
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 18:08 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
For most forms of legal DRM there is alternatives, actually. Not even iTunes
requires users to purchase DRM'd content anymore. The only serious big block of users of DRM are the movie industry folks and they will come around eventually.
The only very troublesome things are going to be things like GSM, which there
Next-gen Nokia Linux devices will get multitouch and Qt UI (ars technica) Posted Oct 14, 2009 17:46 UTC (Wed) by krake (subscriber, #55996) [Link] And DRM is the solution corresponding to this will.
Actually it is an attempt to save face of media publishers who want to hide that loss of revenue is mainly their own fault (e.g. waiting way to long before establishing digital distribution channels).
Starting from there, you need to have a chain of trust starting at boot time, till the execution of the player application.
Chain of trust is a work around for failing to implement a proper cryptographic channel from content source to destination. The very base principle of a secure channel is that only the two ends know the secret protecting the channel, not any random third party inbetween.
DRM was designed with its flaws in order to not require an actually secure channel so it could be deployed right away without requiring the consumer device market to catch up.
It is sad that even newly designed mobile devices rather propagate a flawed and discriminatory scheme instead of providing real benefits to both content provider and consumers.
But the worst thing is that people still believe and propagate the excuse that it would be necessary.
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