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Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware)
The "Matware" site has a
brief article (in Spanish) stating that a planned talk by Richard
Stallman at the Argentinian National Technological University, Mar del
Plata, has been canceled as the result of contracts signed with Microsoft.
Said contracts, it is said, prohibit the university from criticizing the
company or its products. English translation is available
via Google.
(Log in to post comments)
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 20:04 UTC (Wed) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]
No doubt some *other* Argentine organization will provide him a place to speak?
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 20:25 UTC (Wed) by justme (guest, #19967) [Link]
Makes one wonder whether that University has any policies on academic freedom that don't accord with the contract. What if a professor decides to do research on the quality of Microsoft software?
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 15, 2009 0:17 UTC (Tue) by nandersson (guest, #54787) [Link]
I'm writing for Swedish TechWorld Open Source and I'm fluent in Spanish.
This sounds totally bogus to me and the video made no sense.
I very much doubt that Microsoft has influence in what speakers a south american university can hire.
I'm sorry - but please prove me wrong.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 20:25 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]
That sounds very fishy. Surely if Richard Stallman criticizes Microsoft, it's not a problem because it's not the *university* doing the criticism.
If the university signed a contract with MSFT prohibiting *anyone* who is present at the university from criticizing Microsoft, then it's a different ballgame and the university administration should be thoroughly ashamed of itself. And all the students there should walk around with "Microsoft Sucks" T-shirts to see how MSFT and the administration react.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 20:44 UTC (Wed) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]
Could someone fluent in Spanish do the rest of us the favor of locating addresses (email and physical) for principle administrative figures of the Argentinian National Technological University -- and post them here, please? Many of us have University affiliations, and now is the time to write with the authorial imprimatur of academics to enforce the rights and obligations under which we operate.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:02 UTC (Wed) by jkohen (subscriber, #47486) [Link]
Here's a starting point, but only names and no addresses are given:
http://www.mdp.utn.edu.ar/institucional-autoridades.php UTN Rectorado: Rector Ing. Hector C. Brotto. UTN Mar del Plata: Directora Lic. Juana Bau.
The organization chart can be opened by clicking on the (not so obvious)
General university contact info for Mar del Plata:
Maybe some reader from Mar del Plata can give you more information. Good
What's happening? Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:02 UTC (Wed) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]
There must be something lost in translation here. I find it hard to believe that a universitý would be prohibited from critizing Microsoft. Could someone from Argentina care to comment on what's going on there?
What's happening? Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:13 UTC (Wed) by jkohen (subscriber, #47486) [Link]
There doesn't seem to be any public information. The University's website
only says the talk was cancelled due to external reasons. The original post in matware mentions "deals" and not "contracts," but there is also a lack of details.
There is an official post announcing the relocation of the talk: http://losojosdetux.com.ar/2009/08/richard-stallman-en-ma...
Someone from the University's student association/group wrote something in
The saddest thing here is that this is a tax-supported public University we
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:09 UTC (Wed) by alvieboy (subscriber, #51617) [Link]
They would not dare to do that in Venezuela. (pun intended)
Now seriously,
I am not familiar with Argentina laws, but I believe in any democratic country law would forbid these kind of agreements. It goes against one of the most important liberties: freedom of speech.
I personally do not like Stallman a lot (we diverge in some fulcral points), but I'm with him on this one.
Álvaro
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:37 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] Freedom of speech means that the law cannot prohibit you from speaking (per se), or punish you for it, regardless of the content of your speech. You remain free to voluntarily accept limitations on your own speech, however, as the university has done here. They are free to break that contract, but then they must forfeit the penalty they agreed to in accepting it. This would be perfectly legal in the U.S. as well as most other democratic nations—and more to the point, in all nations which prioritize liberty, which is independent of, and often opposed to, democracy.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 22:11 UTC (Wed) by alvieboy (subscriber, #51617) [Link]
Despite the fact that it is not actually Uni's speech.
I am not sure what's the concrete status of Universities in Argentina, but I do believe they are not private held. This enforces them to serve the population. Point one.
Freedom of speech - I am free to speak up for whatever I want albeit I might suffer consequences from it. But that comes after. No one can forbid me to expose my points of view - That's censure - the same censure US allegedly are against as a Democratic country.
I do understand your point, but I must disagree. Here where I live *no one*, not even the government, can forbid be from expressing my points of view, even if them put my own country in a "dangerous" situation. Nor can any privately held company. They can sue me after for damages, but surely not any other way. And I can go to jail too, but I have to be given the freedom to speech.
So basically this boils down to: It's up to Uni to decide whether it wants someone to speak there or not, but telling us that this breaks up some kind of [illegal?] agreement is throwing dust to people's eyes.
It boils down to politics.
Álvaro
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 5:54 UTC (Thu) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]
As someone has said, it doesn't mean that there can never be any limitations placed on where/etc.
For instance: you can't show up to your office and sit there with a megaphone loudly criticising your boss through a megaphone. That would pretty rapidly lead to termination of employment.
Likewise, the university presumably has an agreement with Microsoft prohibiting this kind of thing, with penalties (or loss of benefits) for non-compliance.
Freedom of speech means that the government can't place a blanket prohibition on saying certain things. It doesn't mean you're free to walk in anywhere at any time and say whatever you like, despite what Internet commenters everywhere seem to think.
Ideals of Universities Posted Sep 3, 2009 8:37 UTC (Thu) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] Universities are a special case! Traditionally they are supposed to encourage critical thinking and free exchange of ideas. Of course within civilized limits (no bullhorns in offices). A critical guest lecture is certainly something a good university should not ban.Based on what one sees here (possibly not the whole story, and I cannot read Spanish), the university in question seems to have failed in its mission. When freedom of speech comes up, many are quick to point out it applies to governements and laws, but in a world where large corporations wield influence comparable to governements, it is a too narrow view.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:44 UTC (Wed) by Skedyagpic (guest, #60375) [Link]
'Freedom of speech' does not mean you can say anything at any time anywhere.
At least in America, it only protects you from the government, not from private institutions. And even then, the government can damn well abbridge your free speech rights for public safety (yelling fire in a theatre) obstruction of justice (telling everyone in a bar where the DUI checkpoints are) or national security (telling terrorists the identities of counter-terrorists) just to name a few examples.
That said. Microsoft is a douchebag. The university should nullify that contract. And who said Stallman was going to criticize Microsoft there? I doubt "criticize microsoft" was on the agenda.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 22:29 UTC (Wed) by alvieboy (subscriber, #51617) [Link]
> 'Freedom of speech' does not mean you can say anything at any time anywhere.
It does. I might suffer the consequences.
> At least in America, it only protects you from the government, not from private institutions.
How does it protect from the government ?
> And even then, the government can damn well abbridge your free speech rights for public safety (yelling fire in a theatre) obstruction of justice (telling everyone in a bar where the DUI checkpoints are) or national security (telling terrorists the identities of counter-terrorists) just to name a few examples.
Those are law violations (except maybe for the latter). There is no law depicting you cannot speak about Microsoft, is there ?
> That said. Microsoft is a douchebag. The university should nullify that contract. And who said Stallman was going to criticize Microsoft there? I doubt "criticize microsoft" was on the agenda.
Agreed, but.. I sincerely doubt there was such an agreement. At least formal.
God how I hate politic games.
Álvaro
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 20:34 UTC (Thu) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] There is no law depicting you cannot speak about Microsoft, is there ?
Probably there's no explicit law that if you take the bus, but don't buy a ticket, you have to pay a penalty fee. Still, you have to pay, because by boarding the bus, you've made a contract with the bus operator that includes the fee. Similarly, it's possible that Microsoft makes a contract with a university that there will be no anti-MS talks at the university (even though probably this didn't happen, just sensationalist
explicit law Posted Sep 4, 2009 14:29 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
Interestingly it took an explicit law in the UK to make it possible to fine people for travelling on the train without a ticket.
This "penalty fare" law requires an application to government for each station to be covered, and extensive signage and reminder messages at every entrance, the provision of working ticket machines or 24 hour ticket staff with a monitoring system to ensure the law isn't applied if the machines break or the staff fall ill, and so on.
Previously (and still today where the train operator hasn't put all this in place and made a formal application to use the law) the only thing the inspectors could do was demand that someone travelling without a ticket bought one there and then. If the person refused, their only recourse was to try to take them to court (in most cases the individual would refuse to identify themselves and flee the scene) and even if it got to court the case was likely to fail if the defendant offered to pay the ticket price and said they'd forgotten to buy a ticket or had some other even halfway plausible excuse.
So essentially until this law was put on the books, the train operators had to rely on their passengers being either honest (and buying a ticket voluntarily) or stupid. Fortunately a lot of people are honest.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 23:31 UTC (Wed) by PaulWay (✭ supporter ✭, #45600) [Link]
> And who said Stallman was going to criticize Microsoft there? I doubt "criticize microsoft" was on the agenda.
To paraphrase Linus: "It is not my intention to criticise Microsoft. That would be a completely unintended side-effect."
Have fun,
Paul
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 2:23 UTC (Thu) by mgh (guest, #5696) [Link]
Many software license agreements prohibit free speech - and they are sold in many countries that have "free speech" laws.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 7:32 UTC (Thu) by michaeljt (subscriber, #39183) [Link]
But they are not always legally enforceable. Perhaps it is time that people start taking these things to consumer protection/trading standards organisations for deliberately misleading purchasers about their rights...
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 2, 2009 22:19 UTC (Wed) by beuno (guest, #44010) [Link]
Anecdotally, the talk did take place in the end, only somewhere else near by.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 1:42 UTC (Thu) by dps (subscriber, #5725) [Link]
It is probably worth knowing that you *can* make agreements about what you will say in most places, including places which take freedom of speech seriously.
Let it suffice to say that the economic conditions lead to me losing a job and the agreement associated with this says things about what I and they say about this matter. One of these terms is that the details of the agreement are confidential.
There are also certain forms of speech which are not allowed, for example incitement to murder. Various sorts of conspiracy are also not protected even in the US.
We're lucky this was public! Posted Sep 3, 2009 2:28 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]
Other colleges and universities need to be made aware of this (now and in our future dealings with them).
...and one has to wonder, how many other speeches (not just by rms) have been quietly not-approved in other universities at MS's behest?
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 16:45 UTC (Thu) by errare_est (guest, #14275) [Link]
A member of our GLUG asked directly, MS is not related, it is more a political discussion/disagreement inside the University.
In spanish:
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 3, 2009 19:00 UTC (Thu) by toxorstein (subscriber, #60168) [Link]
For those who don't understand Spanish the problem was more related with the university administration than with Microsoft.That's because the people who were organizing the event have an agenda that is not very Microsoft friendly. Then the administration who doesn't want to have any kind of student organization retired the support for the event so people thought that Microsoft was involved (as far as I can tell)
Ps : by the way, sorry for my awful english.
Microsoft contract forces cancellation of Stallman talk in Argentina (Matware) Posted Sep 6, 2009 5:19 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] It is more that a very unfriendly (and seemingly unofficial) student organization got into the university's administration's hair over who was to appear organizing the talk. Sure, among a lot of other grievances they complain about deals with MSFT (which I very much doubt are that different from the ones US universities sign...) and that they are enthusiastic about free software, but the blog entry talks about "revolutionary struggle against high fees" (the official UTN webpage states unambiguosly that the university doesn't charge any tuition fees) and such. AFAICS, this is not about free software, that RMS stood in the middle of it is incidental in this whole mess. I'm not from Argentina, and don't know the situation at UTN Mar del Plata in any detail; but I lived through similar situations around here in Chile.
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