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I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome?I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome?Posted Aug 28, 2009 16:13 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544)Parent article: FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software
Ok. I'm convinced. For my main project (the swpat.org wiki to document the case against software patents), I'm now making a policy to ban sexist comments and comments which assume all readers are male. When this policy is in place, how do I advertise to women that swpat.org is a project which aims to be welcoming to both genders?
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I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 28, 2009 16:44 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
banning sexist comments is one thing, but when you say banning comments that assume all readers are male please watch that you don't start making a fuss when people say 'him' and not 'him/her' etc
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 28, 2009 21:32 UTC (Fri) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
Hey dlang,
Being constantly excluded via pronouns is actually really frustrating and jarring as a woman. This may not be your experience, but it is mine.
Douglas Hofstadter's "Person Paper on Purity in Language" does a good job of illustrating this: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
If I've convinced you at all, the "Handbook of Nonsexist Writing" by Swift and Miller is an excellent resource on the topic.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 28, 2009 21:36 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
exactly my reason for brining this up.
note that the response was 'nobody is asking you to do that', apparently you are.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 28, 2009 21:43 UTC (Fri) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
I'm confused by your comment, sorry. Are you saying that I shouldn't be bringing this up?
I certainly don't think that banning people who screw up pronouns is effective, but I still think it's a valid issue to bring up. I'm happy to do so in a friendly way, because I realize it's something that makes /no/ sense to many guys by default.
One really effective technique (which Miller and Swift advocate) is to simply alternate or vary your pronouns.
So in one description you refer to "he", in another "she".
The one gotcha there of course is falling back into stereotypes - if your "she" is always the graphic designer, and your "he" the programmer, well, that's not really helping either :)
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 28, 2009 22:32 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
You have to be careful there. I've read things which were written by people who tried to follow this and misunderstood it, alternating the pronouns *each time they were used*. This is incredibly confusing and distracting, as if the exemplar is someone having a sex change every ten seconds. Instead, just arrange for individuals in the examples to be of both sexes, chosen at random. It's not hard :)
(I've also read things written by people who'd heard of singular they, thought it was really great, and thought they could just replace all instances of 'he' with 'they'. Of course that's a grammatical abomination.)
(and this comment is off topic. Er, sorry, is that a bikeshed, I'll go and paint it...)
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 17:13 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
That's why i suggested "per story" over "per usage" :) I've also seen them alternated, and yea, it's hella confusing.
I'm less flustered by the singlular "they". As paulj points out else-thread, this used to be a common English usage.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 21:57 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
It's not the singular they that's flustering: it's when people think they can turn all 'he's into 'they's. You can't do that: singular they works only when number is uncertain, and fails horribly when it is known to be 1. (e.g. you cannot make 'he was a world-record high-jumper' use singular they). In practice, this is not often important when desexing examples. I'm just being pedantic. Again.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 22:31 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
ah, gotcha :)
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 31, 2009 22:37 UTC (Mon) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]
FWIW, using "they" to refer to a specific individual of indeterminate gender is perfectly acceptable in my dialect. For instance, I could totally say "Some biker nearly ran me over today -- they weren't even wearing a helmet!". Your example of "They were a world record high-jumper" is a bit odd, but only because that sentence sounds like it comes from a biographical article or something, and it'd be pretty unusual to write a biographical article without being aware of your subject's gender.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 21:33 UTC (Sat) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
My native tongue has no gender-specific pronouns, and I'm actually relatively uncomfortable with using either 'he' or 'she'. I prefer 'one', but it sounds odd.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 30, 2009 2:39 UTC (Sun) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
I use "one" sometimes too, but yeah, it usually sounds oldtimey :)
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 10:35 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]
In British english, it used to be quite common to use "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun.
I hope Ciarán adopts that usage, rather than more silly things like "his/her" or (worse) switching to "her".
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 16:49 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
'they' is gender neutral, but it is plural, not signular.
english doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun, historicly 'him' has been used both for males, and for the generic pronoun.
in my opinion, getting to the point where you are arguing about what pronoun people use is over the line awaoy from sexual harrasment and sexism, and actually weakens your case.
this thread started out dealing with really important things (people sending death threats because a person is female), and here has devolved to "don't use 'him' to refer to someone that you don't know the gender of". can you see why arguing the latter cheapens the former?
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 17:26 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link] 'they' is gender neutral, but it is plural, not signular. as was pointed out elsewhere, they used to be in common usage as a neutral singular. english doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun, historicly 'him' has been used both for males, and for the generic pronoun. I've tried to explain why this is problematic. I'm curious if you read the Hofstadter piece I linked to? in my opinion, getting to the point where you are arguing about what pronoun people use is over the line awaoy from sexual harrasment and sexism, and actually weakens your case. this thread started out dealing with really important things (people sending death threats because a person is female), and here has devolved to "don't use 'him' to refer to someone that you don't know the gender of". can you see why arguing the latter cheapens the former? Funny how you were the one who "devolved" this conversation by bringing this up in several comments: http://lwn.net/Articles/349623/
Perhaps there's a difference to you between "aggressively stamping out" this usage and politely asking people to not do it. I'm curious as to whether you're receptive at all to the latter, given that several women have explicitly stated that male-only language makes us feel invisible, marginalized, and excluded? I'm not all that happy to engage with arguments on "tone" but would at least like to clarify whether you're advocating for the continued usage of exclusionary language, or just uncomfortable with the "tone" of such requests in the past. Thanks, -Leigh
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 17:29 UTC (Sat) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link] Historically, English has used the appropriate plural pronoun as a respectful singular pronoun for others; indeed, we've completely lost thou in favour of the plural pronoun you. If you skip the Victorian era, "they" is a common singular pronoun for either gender, where you wish to be respectful to the person you are discussing; hence you get phrasings like "My lord and master was pleased with what they saw".
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 18:00 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]
Obviously I meant "they" is used in British english as a gender-neutral *singular* pronoun (and similarly the possessive "their" can be used in a gender-neutral, singular fashion).
I'm reasonably certain this is a long-standing practice in english. It's also quite elegant.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 21:59 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
It's such a longstanding practice that you could do it in Old English and probably in languages predating that. If what you're speaking is English enough that you can be understood without special training, you can use singular they.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 28, 2009 20:32 UTC (Fri) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
I'd suggest putting a "code of conduct" or "guidelines for participation" or something somewhere moderately prominent on your site -- perhaps on the front page and/or in the sidebar menu. In it, explain what is and is not OK. If you say "sexist comments" people won't know exactly what that means, so you might want to say something like:
"Comments that denigrate or ridicule women or any other minority group, or which suggest that members of that group are not or cannot be members of our community, are not permitted on this wiki."
Wrt the thing about inclusive language (him/her and the like), I believe it's important, but there are a few ways to go about it. These days "him/her" is not unusual and most people will just skim right past it -- it appears in eg. forms you fill in all the time. People could also say "they" as a non-gender-specific singular; though people will complain that it is poor grammar, it has been used in English ever since Shakespeare. Another option is to rework the way sentences are framed so that it avoids the pronoun (though this can lead to the passive voice, which some people dislike). A final way is simply to switch it up a bit: use different pronouns in different places, with an approximately 50/50 ratio.
More frustrating to me personally is the sort of language that that says things like "we all know computer geeks love pictures of sexy women" which, while not using the male pronoun, definitely sets up the assumption that "computer geeks" are male (and heterosexual). An example from this comment thread is the "women hate geeks" comment a while back: setting up a false dichotomy with "women" on one side and "geeks" on the other as if there were no such thing as women geeks. To me, this stuff is more insidious when it comes to making us feel invisible and unwanted.
The final thing is to take complaints about sexist comments/jokes/pronouns/whatever seriously. What you need to say is something like, "If women say that something said here denigrates or excludes them, we will believe them and take them seriously, and change it." In a difference of opinion between a man/men and a woman/women over whether something is sexist or not, you need to give the woman the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, what you are saying is, "We don't allow sexist language except when we really want to," and that is not a strong or welcoming message.
Anyway! I am rambling.
I am thinking of putting together a wiki page on the Geek Feminism Wiki that lists projects that have a code of conduct that prohibits sexist behaviour. If I create it, and after you've set up your CoC, I will add your project to the list.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 0:41 UTC (Sat) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] In the GNU maintainers manual, Stallman uses person and Marge Piercy's per, pers and perself neologisms to avoid gender bias.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 22:05 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
And oh *god* is it annoying. I had to search-and-replace the things before I could read it.
You cannot invent new pronouns on the fly. You just can't. They're one of the most stable aspects of any language, and resist change strongly (as indicated by the fact that you can see the bones of PIE in English pronouns even now, despite their radical changes due to Anglo-Norman influence on Old English, and that the things are still inflected at least 750 years after everything else lost inflection). The creation of new gender-neutral pronouns has been attempted over and over by people who dislike or don't know about singular they. It's failed every single time, and always will.
(Or, rather, you *can* invent new pronouns on the fly, if you don't mind throwing landmines in the ease-of-reading of all your readers. I can confidently assert that they will never be commonly used, and will always annoy and confuse readers. So don't do it, OK? We have a gender-neutral pronoun, even if it is rather annoying to use.)
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 29, 2009 23:46 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
And it's silly too, given that singular they works /just fine/ :)
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 30, 2009 1:01 UTC (Sun) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]
Let's not get carried away.
Singular they can lead to ambiguity. Relacing "he" with "they" breaks this sentence:
"If the crowd doesn't leave the owner's office now, he could be stuck there all night."
And it can also change the tone. No problem in formal writing, and I use it in that situation, but just like using "one" changes your tone (and is likely to offend in informal settings), using third-person "they" can be inappropriate in some settings.
The problem has no perfect solution. Stallman tried to help by propagating the "Per/pers/perself" suggestions of the gender neutral language movement, but it didn't take off.
I'm convinced. Where can I mention that women are very welcome? Posted Aug 30, 2009 2:17 UTC (Sun) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
"The crowd could be stuck there all night if they don't leave the owner's office now."
Presumably the owner is known to be male or female anyway, but a 3-second look at that sentence told me how to rephrase it in any event. It does get easier once you start writing for neutrality on a regular basis.
It's even a plural "they" in this case :)
I've mentioned it else-thread, but Miller and Swift's "Handbook of Nonsexist Writing" is really a fantastic resource on the topic. I refer to it on at least a weekly basis.
The one word I haven't found a decent neutral version for is "handyman". "Fixer" just doesn't have the same flavour to it, and "repair person" is just meh.
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