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OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering

OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering

Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:41 UTC (Thu) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478)
In reply to: OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering by BrucePerens
Parent article: FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software

> * Being asked to explain things over and over again and STILL not being believed

> Unless you're telling me there aren't any early-childhood or nature issues in the mix as well, there is not a lack-of-belief issue here.

There are absolutely early-childhood issues at stake. They are covered extensively in the Unlocking the Clubhouse study. It's really a fantastic read.

As for the nature issues, here are three things to consider:

1) Studies which show a lack of difference tend to not get published. This messes up our understanding of gender issues a heck of a lot. This is feminist science studies 101, in a nutshell.
2) Even given that, there is some interesting research and data that shows that a lot of the perceived math/science gender differences are cultural and experiential, rather than in-born. Here's a fascinating one from the school I'm studying at: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071024145626... . There's also interesting data from places like Malaysia where software dev is more like 50/50 men and women.
3) Even if nature does come into play /at all/, its influence is so eclipsed by culture as to be irrelevant. And, well, we can't change nature, so let's focus on the things we can change. Arguing about how much of a role nature plays doesn't really help us get more women involved.

Here's some further reading about the problems with the "nature" argument, which is also called essentialism within the gender studies context: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Essentialism , which links to http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/faq-bu...


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Leaky pipes and early childhood interventions

Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:53 UTC (Thu) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]

I'd also like to suggest a good search term for discussions about this: "leaky pipe". The analogy is that the process of getting women into open source is like a pipe with leaky points all along the way. All of the leaks need to be stopped up, and stopping any particular leak (whether it is early childhood influences or sexism at tech conferences) will help more deliver more women to the end of the pipe.

Nobody's saying that there aren't other leaks. There absolutely are. But the ones that the open source community can best address are the ones that are specific to the open source community.

If you are interested in eg. encouraging girls in STEM (science/tech/eng/math) education at early ages, there are many other organisatinos working on that. Many of them take donations, or would welcome your volunteer time.

Leaky pipes and early childhood interventions

Posted Aug 28, 2009 0:44 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

The analogy is that the process of getting women into open source is like a pipe with leaky points all along the way.
That frames the issue pretty well.

OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering

Posted Aug 28, 2009 3:06 UTC (Fri) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

> 1) Studies which show a lack of difference tend to not get published.

Just to expand for the benefit of those without a lot of experience in social science: this has two unfortunate consequences.

First, social scientists constantly have to ask themselves whether some pattern they observe in their data is a result of some underlying principle, or just a coincidence. (If you flip a coin 10 times, and got 8 heads, is that because the coin is unfair? If you had 10 men and 10 women perform some task, and 8 of the women did better than the average man, is that because women in general are better at your task?) That's what statistical testing is for. Unfortunately, statistical tests are never perfect -- they won't tell you that getting 10 heads in a row means your coin is unfair, just that if not then that's one *heck* of a coincidence.

But if you keep trying long enough, then eventually you'll get that coincidence. And "science says women are <...>!" gets press, so lots of the time, when someone's running some random study, they'll do a quick check for gender effects, just in case. If 20 people do this, then 19 of them will get nothing, shrug, and forget about it; 1 of them will flip 10 heads in a row and publish a really excited paper! They don't know they're the 20th person to try, after all. (And that's leaving out the effects of confirmation bias, etc.)

Second, once a claim like that is out there in the literature, it's hard to disprove; if you just repeat the study and don't see a difference, then maybe you just did it wrong or something -- it's hard to get that published. (And even if you do, it's not as exciting, so it won't get press coverage, so a heap of people will go on believing that they Know Something About Men and Women that's just wrong.)

The end result is that the literature on gender differences has heaps of confusing nonsense in it. There are real gender differences too, but they're hard to pin down, and after all that nonsense it's hard to imagine that people would have *missed* anything so dramatic as to cause 98.5%/1.5% differences in participation a specific field invented in the last 30 years. Seriously, that'd be Nobel-worthy.

This isn't my area of specialty, but AFAICT, whether you're right or left handed has more of an effect on your general cognition than what you keep in your pants (and your culture matters a lot more than either).

OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering

Posted Aug 29, 2009 17:05 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]

Thanks for expanding on this - it /is/ my area of study (along with my other major in Computer Science) and I kinda glossed over it because of that :)

OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering

Posted Aug 31, 2009 22:21 UTC (Mon) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

Yeah, anything to procrastinate on writing this stupid methods section :-)

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