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FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free SoftwareFSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free SoftwarePosted Aug 27, 2009 21:01 UTC (Thu) by alankila (subscriber, #47141)In reply to: FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software by maco Parent article: FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software
The examples that answer the question "why aren't there more women" also puzzle me. The given causes x, y and z seem underwhelming to me. A guy thinks "if the tech is the stuff you care about most, you'd just tune the idiots out". From this perspective, hearing women say "I'd rather crack open a good book" simply doesn't compute. Incredulity can even turn into a little bit of anger: how can you be in this field if you care so little for the stuff it is about!
It is perhaps fair to conclude from this anecdotalish evidence, once more, that men and women have different priorities in life, and they carry this baggage along with them wherever they go. It also means that if we are going to make a community of both men and women in equal numbers, it means also that the community itself must change to accommodate women who obviously are looking for very different kind of things from open source.
It's times like these I almost hope that all the discussion will amount to no practical changes at all. We know and understand the status quo and can work with it. Will we improve it, or make it worse, if we try to force it to change? Why can't women just find their place first among themselves doing whatever they like doing, and later when there are a lot of them, perhaps we can make these spheres interact and even merge to whatever degree makes sense.
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FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 28, 2009 3:43 UTC (Fri) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]
At some point, the straw breaks the camel's back, right? How much faster would the back break if a straw was added almost daily (as it is for women) versus once every few months (flamewars where a man feels personally insulted)?
And well...there are women who do development for a job. But there, they have a sexual harassment policy and lawyers to keep the worst of the idiots at bay.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 28, 2009 13:14 UTC (Fri) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
There is a point in what you say. I also realize that the "I'd rather pick up a good book"-phrase is most likely an exaggeration to make a point, to say that the costs exceed the rewards, at which point a rational person stops expending effort.
I had not considered that rewards could be high but costs also correspondingly very large: I had more or less assumed that a few idiots (small cost) can exceed the entire reward (which would also be small). My working hypothesis was that men simply like, say, coding more than women and therefore are willing to put up with more bullshit.
One possible resolving of the dilemma is that even if men and women experienced quantitatively the same input, it's possible that the women are much more sensitive to slights made by others, to the point of noticing slights where none were intended. (In the threads here, we have seen plain statements from Bruce being reinterpreted in ways that make them *very* offensive to women, and by at least 3 separate women.) But this is just a "grow a thicker skin" argument, and I don't expect it will fly over well.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 29, 2009 17:37 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
Consider that the volume of these "slights", even when each is considered small on its own, can add up to be quite a burden. No matter how thick your skin is, if you get enough papercuts, you're going to bleed.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 29, 2009 22:18 UTC (Sat) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
I agree with that point, you are right.
But I've also noticed the puzzling way women attack even well-meaning men. The sort of people who try to understand women, want to help them, but do not for some reason manage to express themselves just right. (Sometimes I wonder if there is any such man that manages to say anything which the women don't attack and tear down.)
The rest of my comment was idly speculation loosely around the issue, but I no longer believe those thoughts of mine are worth anything. All I can say is: there is some kind of major fault in communications between men and women, perhaps due to how much the issue has become polarized over the years.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 29, 2009 23:45 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
Challenges to privilege will just about always feel like an attack, no matter how nicely they are worded. That's one of the tricky ways it works. http://derailingfordummies.com talks a bunch about this.
Couple that with how exhausting it is to have 101-level discussions (like this one!) over and over and over and over and over again, and it's a wonder we aren't any testier than we are :)
I don't think it's a gendered fault in communication. I just think that you need to read more beginner texts. You're expecting, to pick on the metaphor used elsewhere in this thread, to be able to hack kernel code without knowing the basics of C, and acting miffed when we get frustrated - if that makes it a bit clearer.
derailing Posted Aug 30, 2009 3:31 UTC (Sun) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] When I read the derailing website, I said "Yep, this is indeed the correct term for when someone makes a two hour political speech and then a group uses a part of his closing comedy routine to completely change the subject and attack him." This brings me to another point. There could be a problem with the available texts: Group A can't see the reason for Group B to have a problem. Group B, which sees the problem clearly, writes various docs about what they see. It's quite possible that Group B's docs will be written from a point of view which is completely non-intuitive (and thus not very effective) for Group A. What I've learned from free software advocacy is that, unfortunately, if you want to change attitudes, you have to keep repeating yourself again and again (while trying to improve your technique). Before you've convinced someone that there's a problem, it's unlikely that they're going to be motivated to go read the beginners texts on the topic (and one can't assume that just because the beginners texts seem good to a Group B person, that they'll be appreciated by a Group A person). My 2c.
derailing Posted Aug 30, 2009 4:23 UTC (Sun) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
I can see that being valid for some of the docs on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com , where it's more written for those of us already doing geek feminist work.
There are resources though which are written specifically to be for the "group A" in this case such as http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roun... and studies like the FLOSSPOLS one, and even Skud's OSCON keynote. These docs aim to be those 101-level documents.
There's also a difference between talking to J. Random Hacker and folks who have explicitly expressed an interest in what they can do to help. If folks (in this case men) want to help, that should include reading the resources we point them at. To demand otherwise is a particularly exhausting form of derailing - in fact, it's the first two points on Derailing For Dummies :)
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 30, 2009 4:14 UTC (Sun) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
I recognize that many of the sort of thoughts I have had are nicely numbered and bitingly summarized in derailing for dummies, and it even lists quite a number of clever arguments I have not thought of yet.
I do not know what you mean by "challenges to privilege". I was talking about women attacking well-meaning men. The most common charge I have seen is "being patronizing". Like, having an idea that occurs to you as a 101-level man, you express it and then get very acidic feedback whose essence is "Do you think we are that stupid? Oh, the great man comes into the scene and surveys it with his superior intelligence and discovers a solution. You idiot! We tried that already in '73!"
I can understand where it comes from, but I would do all I can to beg for patience from women when facing guys. As a rule, we are clearly nearly completely oblivious to the objectives that modern feminist thought wishes to attain for women. It may well be because by default we live lazily and happily in our cozy cushion of privilege, and therefore do not perceive anything to be wrong. Perhaps if women came up with a good ad campaign or two that depicts real stories of women who suffered from male privilege and that way shook our world... Wait, don't tell me, this has been tried already?
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 30, 2009 4:55 UTC (Sun) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
I forgot to mention one thing that bubbled in my brain but failed to find an outlet the last time...
Let's consider the word derailing. I'd like to argue that 90 % of the guys are probably making an entirely honest effort in trying to understand the feminist position. Unfortunately, they have been primed by widely circulated feminist statements like "all men are rapists" or similar blanket statements that finger them as guilty and on the wrong side for things they never did or planned to do.
Men judge these statements absurd and do not believe them, because we could hardly live with ourselves if all that was said about men by some feminists were true. Regardless, we are primed to be in a defensive, personal mood, even past what may be male biological conditioning: "I didn't do anything wrong, it's you who are being crazy and unfair". The consequence of this starting position will be an attempt to prove it, and thus follow the steps written in the derailing document.
Women seem to have categorically decided to not pander to men: they do not see any need to help us understand them -- after all, why should women sacrifice any iota more of their time and soul to help men -- but that has the unfortunate side effect of making it even more difficult to understand what women are saying at all. It's a bit like everyone was dug in their trenches and time of discussion went past decades ago.
That derailing document is biting and maliculous to the bitter end. This may be why it works. But that means that it is also unnecessarily difficult to read for even sympathetic audience. For a man, it may take an attitude of almost zen-like detachment to read it fully. As such, it can do more harm than good when you pull it into debate: it can easily feed the "women are crazy" side of the argument. Of course, you have much more real experience having presumably used that document in more than one occasion, but that's my take on it.
I would ask women to learn from Valerie Aurora's style. It's impossible to take offense with her style. I submit that words that get read are infinitely more valuable to those that do not.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 30, 2009 5:28 UTC (Sun) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
Hey alankila,
I'm going to respond to your comments, but I won't likely be able to until tomorrow. If you're not likely to be back here or aren't checking the RSS feed, ping me at leigh at hypatia dot ca and I'll email you when I reply.
-Leigh
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 29, 2009 22:07 UTC (Sat) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]
> One possible resolving of the dilemma is that even if men and women experienced quantitatively the same input, it's possible that the women are much more sensitive to slights made by others, to the point of noticing slights where none were intended.
Just to say, I'm pretty sure that if I faced half the $#@ that I hear described by women, I'd never have stuck around in FOSS.
They're all telling you that yes, they face dramatically more BS than men. This is pretty easy to confirm. You're sort of brushing that aside to preserve your prior assumption -- not based on any data, AFAICT -- that no, men and women are treated the same, and in order to do that you speculate that really the problem is with the women, because they just such delicate flowers.
Do you see how your comment might be adding to that BS they face?
> In the threads here, we have seen plain statements from Bruce being reinterpreted in ways that make them *very* offensive to women
Alternatively, it's possible that those statements actually are offensive to women -- that they felt excluded, disrespected, and so on -- but that you and Bruce didn't have the right background to see that until they were commented on. I don't think I did any "reinterpretation" of your statement above; I think I just took it's plain meaning and pointed out *in context* it had problems you might not have noticed.
If anything, my impression is that the women commenting here are letting a lot of stuff slide and picking a few particularly egregious things to comment on, because there's just too much BS out there and life is too short. That's kind of the opposite of thin-skinnedness.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 30, 2009 3:09 UTC (Sun) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
Firstly, I'm probably getting there, but I need to do it in my own pace. I'm not seriously arguing what you think I'm arguing. I am speculating. Notice the words "if" and "it's possible".
As this speculation arose from the written posts in this thread, I can of course point out the particular cases that I noticed where some women were reading the words of some men in quite adversarial way, beyond what a plain or entirely dispassionate reading would call for.
I do not dispute that women, or in fact any person can read anyone's words just like they want. But I consider it nearly self-evident that the responsibility for successful communication is as much on the speaker as it is on the listener.
> it's possible that those statements actually are offensive to women
This I do not doubt. I called into question the justification of being offended; you might have actually misunderstood what was being said.
FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Posted Aug 30, 2009 4:26 UTC (Sun) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
I think you might find these two posts insightful:
http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/08/05/action-and-reaction-...
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/femini...
:)
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