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OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be consideringOK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be consideringPosted Aug 27, 2009 20:25 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510)In reply to: OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering by james_w Parent article: FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software Of course I know they are there. All 5 or 6 that we have heard from here, and perhaps 200 across the entire Free Software community. I am not yet accepting that the reason that the other women stay away is that women are too weak to counter the social issues.
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OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 20:34 UTC (Thu) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
There's a difference between "weakness" and "being unwilling to put up with a constant stream of hostility, othering, and bullshit". One puts the responsibility where it's due. Hint: it's not "weakness".
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:06 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] That's a great observation, it does turn around the way I'm looking at the problem.But we do have a self-fulfilling prophecy here, don't we? Without you being there to tell the men when they're being intolerable, they probably won't realize they are.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:18 UTC (Thu) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
But Bruce, we're here. And we're telling you what's not ok (RMS's virgin "joke" creepiness, for example). Please start listening :)
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:28 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] You did write RMS and tell him how the joke made you feel, right?
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:18 UTC (Thu) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
Based on his response to criticism in this case and others, I elected to not waste my time.
This is the guy who at Wikimania yesterday asserted in front of a crowd of people that any difference of opinions with him constitutes a personal attack. I'm just not going to bother, sorry :/
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 1:18 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] He's not very well-equipped to deal with conflict.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Sep 22, 2009 16:20 UTC (Tue) by Lefty (subscriber, #51528) [Link] I did, twice, much good it did me. I was interested to note that the word "women" didn't appear a single time in either of his responses.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:21 UTC (Thu) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
But, uh, I'm going to leave it to the other folks to do the talking, because I have to go teach an introductory Python class to a bunch of women. Woot!
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:24 UTC (Thu) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
Hypatia personally, or any of us?
Here are things that are not acceptable and driving women away:
* Being treated like we're invisible or non-existent
Hope that helps.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:45 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] Booth babesI resent them too. Vendors trying to lure me in by my gonads.
* Upskirt photos on Planet blog aggregatorsUgh. Go ahead and make noise. * Blowjob-related ads in Linux publicationsIs this "Do you suck at coding", or something else? * Not having our experiences believedOh, I believe you. The folks I don't believe are the troop of men here telling me what you think. Maybe it would be better if some of you stuck with LWN instead of being on some girrls-only list. If you want to be believed, being there counts. * Being asked to explain things over and over again and STILL not being believedUnless you're telling me there aren't any early-childhood or nature issues in the mix as well, there is not a lack-of-belief issue here. * Being asked "A/S/L" or having pics demanded of usIt sounds really raw. I do admit to having been discouraged to find that purportedly female project participants were really men. But I don't want to ask them A/S/L to establish that. * Out-of-band communications of an inappropriate personal natureI'm assuming this means on IRC. Really bad. * Death threatsI get them too. What are these folks objecting to? Just your presence? Are they really project participants? I see some people whose job or obsession is to demotivate us and aren't really project participants. * Accusations of reverse sexism when we ask people to avoid the aboveYou are not being sexist with me at all as far as I'm aware. But what do I do when someone is? It can happen, you know, and right now I'm damned if I do, and damned if I do not.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:22 UTC (Thu) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
* Blowjob-related ads in Linux publications
Is this "Do you suck at coding", or something else?
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Linux_Journal_blowjob_ad
* Not having our experiences believed
Maybe it would be better if some of you stuck with LWN instead of being on some girrls-only list. If you want to be believed, being there counts.
I am on one women-only list out of dozens. Do you seriously believe I (we) are active participants in open source without being on mixed mailing lists, websites, twitter/identi.ca, IRC, conferences, LUGs, etc? Strawman.
* Death threats
I get them too. What are these folks objecting to? Just your presence? Are they really project participants? I see some people whose job or obsession is to demotivate us and aren't really project participants.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Debian_and_LinuxChix_h...
* Accusations of reverse sexism when we ask people to avoid the above
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/faq-ar...
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:41 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] Well, QSol's out of business, it appears. I won't lament.Was Mike-whoever-he-is identified as a real member of a Free Software community? The reason I am asking is that I have had people do similar stuff to me, and when I've explored I find that they have no real connection to any project and are more likely someone who is paid to make us look bad. OK, "reverse-sexism" is bogus, and not the sexism I was concerned with.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 0:02 UTC (Fri) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
I believe MikeeUSA was an open source developer of some kind; some kind of gaming-related stuff? But it's not really relevant: his death threats are no less scary and offputting.
As for the fact that you (and presumably others) receive death threats, I don't think it's cool or OK that *anyone* threatens anyone's life ever, but I do think men are in a better position to brush it off: there is not such a history of men being killed purely out of misandry. The Debian death threats had an eerie similarity to the Montreal Massacre killer's anti-feminism, and more recently to George Sodini. It is absolutely and realistically scary that men kill women just for being in technical fields and/or believe that feminists are ruining everything. Much as we'd love to ignore it and brush it off, we can't.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 0:58 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] I agree with you about threats.While I would not be a victim of misandry, there is a history of similar nutcases targeting ethnic semites. And lots of folks believe we're running everything too.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 1:42 UTC (Fri) by spender (subscriber, #23067) [Link]
He also seems to be a user of grsecurity. He's annoyingly littered up completely unrelated technical topics with his misogynistic views several times.
-Brad
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 6:18 UTC (Fri) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
thanks for that pointer, spender. lead me to find his real name, finally. seems he's a law student in maine.
i <3 your exploit videos, incidentally.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:35 UTC (Thu) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]
>> * Blowjob-related ads in Linux publications
> Is this "Do you suck at coding", or something else?
Linux Journal ran an ad for QSol about how their servers wouldn't "go down on you either" with an image of a woman's heavily-made-up face.
>> * Death threats
> I get them too. What are these folks objecting to? Just your presence?
Some nutjob was going off about how women were destroying Debian and he was going to kill them for it.[0]
>> * Accusations of reverse sexism when we ask people to avoid the
I've seen a few guys enter the #linuxchix IRC channel recently and tell us that our IRC Etiquette rules[1] are sexist because they're about making men not be men (ie not, as you put it, led around by their gonads). That's just an example of the many times guys say it's unreasonable to expect them to be able to control themselves enough to not hit on every woman they see who can code.
[0] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Debian_death_threats
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:54 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] I've seen a few guys enter the #linuxchix IRC channel recently and tell us that our IRC Etiquette rules[1] are sexist because they're about making men not be men (ie not, as you put it, led around by their gonads). That's just an example of the many times guys say it's unreasonable to expect them to be able to control themselves enough to not hit on every woman they see who can code. They're children. Either real children or emotionally handicapped adults. I counsel companies on their relationship with the Open Source community. One part is preparing them for childish behavior on mailing lists, and helping them find mediators who will never take umbrage and then say something that makes the company look bad. There are actually worse groups than Free Software in this regard. If you have to work with cypherpunks and the crowd who go to defcon, be prepared. Attempting to educate them is all we can do, I guess.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 3:52 UTC (Fri) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]
Mmmm yeah DEFCON...Friends asked if I was going to go this year, but knowing my partner wasn't going to be there...no. Young, female, and at a hacker con [that I can't literally run to my apartment from, if necessary] alone? Bad idea.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 6:44 UTC (Fri) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
you should come next year. we'll make "maco has a posse" stickers, just like nick's :)
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:41 UTC (Thu) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
> * Being asked to explain things over and over again and STILL not being believed
> Unless you're telling me there aren't any early-childhood or nature issues in the mix as well, there is not a lack-of-belief issue here.
There are absolutely early-childhood issues at stake. They are covered extensively in the Unlocking the Clubhouse study. It's really a fantastic read.
As for the nature issues, here are three things to consider:
1) Studies which show a lack of difference tend to not get published. This messes up our understanding of gender issues a heck of a lot. This is feminist science studies 101, in a nutshell.
Here's some further reading about the problems with the "nature" argument, which is also called essentialism within the gender studies context: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Essentialism , which links to http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/faq-bu...
Leaky pipes and early childhood interventions Posted Aug 27, 2009 23:53 UTC (Thu) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
I'd also like to suggest a good search term for discussions about this: "leaky pipe". The analogy is that the process of getting women into open source is like a pipe with leaky points all along the way. All of the leaks need to be stopped up, and stopping any particular leak (whether it is early childhood influences or sexism at tech conferences) will help more deliver more women to the end of the pipe.
Nobody's saying that there aren't other leaks. There absolutely are. But the ones that the open source community can best address are the ones that are specific to the open source community.
If you are interested in eg. encouraging girls in STEM (science/tech/eng/math) education at early ages, there are many other organisatinos working on that. Many of them take donations, or would welcome your volunteer time.
Leaky pipes and early childhood interventions Posted Aug 28, 2009 0:44 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] The analogy is that the process of getting women into open source is like a pipe with leaky points all along the way.That frames the issue pretty well.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 3:06 UTC (Fri) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]
> 1) Studies which show a lack of difference tend to not get published.
Just to expand for the benefit of those without a lot of experience in social science: this has two unfortunate consequences.
First, social scientists constantly have to ask themselves whether some pattern they observe in their data is a result of some underlying principle, or just a coincidence. (If you flip a coin 10 times, and got 8 heads, is that because the coin is unfair? If you had 10 men and 10 women perform some task, and 8 of the women did better than the average man, is that because women in general are better at your task?) That's what statistical testing is for. Unfortunately, statistical tests are never perfect -- they won't tell you that getting 10 heads in a row means your coin is unfair, just that if not then that's one *heck* of a coincidence.
But if you keep trying long enough, then eventually you'll get that coincidence. And "science says women are <...>!" gets press, so lots of the time, when someone's running some random study, they'll do a quick check for gender effects, just in case. If 20 people do this, then 19 of them will get nothing, shrug, and forget about it; 1 of them will flip 10 heads in a row and publish a really excited paper! They don't know they're the 20th person to try, after all. (And that's leaving out the effects of confirmation bias, etc.)
Second, once a claim like that is out there in the literature, it's hard to disprove; if you just repeat the study and don't see a difference, then maybe you just did it wrong or something -- it's hard to get that published. (And even if you do, it's not as exciting, so it won't get press coverage, so a heap of people will go on believing that they Know Something About Men and Women that's just wrong.)
The end result is that the literature on gender differences has heaps of confusing nonsense in it. There are real gender differences too, but they're hard to pin down, and after all that nonsense it's hard to imagine that people would have *missed* anything so dramatic as to cause 98.5%/1.5% differences in participation a specific field invented in the last 30 years. Seriously, that'd be Nobel-worthy.
This isn't my area of specialty, but AFAICT, whether you're right or left handed has more of an effect on your general cognition than what you keep in your pants (and your culture matters a lot more than either).
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 29, 2009 17:05 UTC (Sat) by hypatiadotca (guest, #60478) [Link]
Thanks for expanding on this - it /is/ my area of study (along with my other major in Computer Science) and I kinda glossed over it because of that :)
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 31, 2009 22:21 UTC (Mon) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]
Yeah, anything to procrastinate on writing this stupid methods section :-)
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 2:40 UTC (Fri) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]
> I resent them too. Vendors trying to lure me in by my gonads
But you also realize that there's a difference between the resentment due to someone trying to lure you by your gonads, and resentment due to being told that -- roughly speaking -- those companies didn't consider you a real member of their audience, and implicitly "reminded" that your proper aspiration in life is to use your body to lure others by their gonads?
I hope so; it's just that I've heard a lot of men grumble about booth babes, but if they really *hated* the concept of booth babes the way that they might, then one way or another I'm pretty sure booth babes wouldn't still exist.
> The folks I don't believe are the troop of men here telling me what you think.
Speaking as part of that troop, that's why I've tried to provide logic, data, and links. I'm well aware that I may have gotten things wrong despite that, and if I become aware of any then I'll certainly apologize. Is there anything I've claimed that you still particularly disbelieve?
> I get [death threats] too.
For thinking about this issue, I highly recommend this comment by Kathy Sierra, especially the second half about what's happened since she talked about her threats in public: http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/17/george-sodini-montreal...
On merit, that comment actually deserves front-page treatment. But I don't know what the consequences of that would be :-(
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 12:16 UTC (Fri) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
Re: the front page -- yeah, our thoughts exactly. We talked about it and were uncomfortable putting it in the spotlight, all things considered.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 12:35 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]
> if [men] really *hated* the concept of booth babes ...
> booth babes wouldn't still exist.
My theory, which I'm pretty confident about, is that this is a general issue of conferences with mostly male attendees, nothing to do with the free software community.
Booth babes continue to exist at conferences because conferences are full of men with no interest in the topic but were sent there by their employer.
When I see booth babes at a free software conference (actually, I've only seen them at "Linux" conferences), then I know that that stall is a reputationless company selling something with no differentiating features. Red flag for "ignore this stall". Most other LWN readers would also ignore that stall at a free software conference, by my theory.
Then there's the separate category of attendees who can't tell the difference between the companies and who aren't interested in the details anyway - that separate category, which has almost nothing to do with us, is the target of booth babes.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 2:03 UTC (Fri) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]
> Without you being there to tell the men when they're being intolerable, they probably won't realize they are.
Things *may* not be so hopeless: it turns out that telling men when they're being intolerable is actually possible even *without* ovaries.
I joke, but seriously, I don't wait for women to pop up and tell contributors that my community values testing, regular releases, or clean code; why should I make an exception when it comes to human decency? Obviously I'll screw up sometimes or miss things, but 1) women aren't born knowing how to handle this stuff either, 2) if I pick up some of the slack maybe they'll have a chance to actually do the stuff that I can't, instead of fighting fires and pounding their head against walls 24x7.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 29, 2009 11:22 UTC (Sat) by spzeidler (guest, #60508) [Link]
do you need a woman to actually _tell_ you that someone is a sexist idiot if said sexist idiot, upon learning by accident that a participant in a open source themed chat is female, tells said female that females can't do open source and kicks her out? Do you expect the woman to come crawling in again (possibly on her belly apologizing for being her sex) when noone of the other attendants of the chat feels like telling the guy doing the kick he was being an idiot and to stop that?
I'll tell you my reaction. They can stew in their own bugs for all eternity for all I care, I'm not going to touch -that- project with a ten foot pole again.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 20:42 UTC (Thu) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
Bruce, there are over 300 women on the LinuxChix grrls-only mailing list alone. I've met over 100 myself, and although I am fairly well travelled and know many women in FLOSS I do not know nearly all of them -- as evidenced by the fact that I only know a few of the people on the LinuxChix list! There are approximately 50 women just working on Dreamwidth and the OTW's Archive. Over 200 women responded to the Perl Survey I ran in 2007, again, mostly not overlapping with those I know from elsewhere.
Pull your head out of the sand.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 22:13 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] Thanks for the data, I am really not trying to have a head in sand. My point was that there are too few women participating. That is equally true if there are 2000 rather than 200. It seems that things would be different if there were 20,000 and more different with 200,000. I am still trying to understand why, so few are participating, and I thank you for the assistance with articles.
Desiring respectful treatment isn't about weak vs. strong... Posted Aug 27, 2009 20:45 UTC (Thu) by miss-electra (guest, #60481) [Link]
Why should I have to fight for respect and recognition that is accorded to others simply by their BEING PRESENT? Why should I have to demonstrate "strength" enough to stand up to some bullshit hazing to be part of a community I want to contribute time, energy, and knowledge to?
Knowledge and time and effort are as much currency as money is. So why is it okay for me to say "I refuse to spend money on someone who acts disrespectfully towards me" and that doesn't cast me (or any woman) as weak...but if I make the same statement about my time/knowledge/effort then it's "weakness"?
Desiring respectful treatment isn't about weak vs. strong... Posted Sep 4, 2009 6:49 UTC (Fri) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] Why should I have to fight for respect and recognition that is accorded to others simply by their BEING PRESENT? Clearly you shouldnt. However you *might* be overestimating the respect others are getting. I wasnt there and I dont know, but I have seen that happen for sure - in many groups (not specific to free software but online conversation in general) there is a hazing process that may be informal and undocumented but is very real. I have seen females in such situation get very offended and storm out, appearing to believe they were singled out for disrespect when in fact each and every guy in the room had gone through the same crap earlier. Now I'm not justifying it and I am NOT saying that was what happened with you - I am just saying it's a possibility. I do know from experience that females *are* routinely singled out for special treatment on the internet, for multiple reasons many of which have been mentioned, it's not right or good but it's a fact. This quite naturally and predictably results in females being generally more likely to take offense based on mistakes as well, or to perceive disrespect even when it is not intended. This is not intended as a criticism at all - it's natural and understandable and predictable, and I think ultimately only improvement in communication can address it.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 20:48 UTC (Thu) by Skud (guest, #59840) [Link]
Also FYI, women in this thread: me, maco, hypatia, yatima, cesy, itgrrl, lizhenry, myrtti, zrusilla, selena, talbutt == 11, plus many more mentioned and linked to.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 27, 2009 21:37 UTC (Thu) by dannyobrien (subscriber, #25583) [Link]
There is some irony that the person asserting that "weakness" is the only possible reason that people feel they can no longer work with a community turns out to be Bruce "I resign! Again!" Perens.
Arguments against this irony from Bruce himself will be rejected as anecdotal. To be valid, I need to hear from everyone else before I can understand what his arguments are.
(If Bruce even exists, which I doubt.)
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 28, 2009 12:51 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]
> "weakness" is the only possible reason that people feel they can no longer work with a community
He argued that weakness is *not* the reason for women leaving. i.e women are not weak.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 29, 2009 11:36 UTC (Sat) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]
Yes, and he originally concluded from this that woman were not leaving, because only weak people would leave. Danny's point looks accurate to me.
(I can't believe we're *actually* describing Bruce's arguments to each other in this subthread.)
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 29, 2009 1:29 UTC (Sat) by niv (subscriber, #8656) [Link]
Ah, the old "I haven't heard from any or many women" gem. Oldie, but a goodie.
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