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OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be consideringOK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be consideringPosted Aug 26, 2009 0:52 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341)In reply to: OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering by mjg59 Parent article: FSF to host a mini-summit on Women in Free Software
You seem to have gotten stuck slightly attacking Bruce for his Aspie comment, which he seems to have withdrawn more or less.
FWIW, the debate here seems to have at least the first if not more of the elements I wrote about earlier: "over-heated argument, rife with assertion, misunderstanding and failures to to even *attempt* to understand the other". And this amongst commentators who are, afaict, **all agreed** on the core issue of there being a gender problem (possibly due to sexism) in free software, and do not seem to be sexist themselves. I have to say, and perhaps you might take my view on board even if you disagree with it, that you have played a part in ramping-up the heat and miscommunication somewhat.
Why exactly does our community suck so much at having rational, productive debates? If someone makes a well-intentioned but disagreeable point, why not correct it in a friendly manner instead of becoming terribly offended (or, if it's not particularly important to overall topic - let it slide, perhaps with a small comment). If there seems to be miscommunication, try to at least *present* your reply as if the miscommunication may have been your fault (and hide any exasperation). If the heat starts to rise, instead of fanning the flames, why not instead try douse them with some humour or self-deprecation (which works even when the heat source is at the other keyboard)? etc..
It's probable these tricks do not come naturally and take time to be acquired - having them spelled out may help some people.
Whether the female-anti-factor in free software is down to Aspieness, sexism, heavy metal poisoning due to teething on electronics or whatever combination of those and other factors, who knows - but it seems like we have an even bigger .*-anti-factor thanks to our communication norms.
NB: I hope it's obvious that the above was not meant to attack you personally, but rather to generalise from this thread to help illustrate my general point about communication problems in our community. ;)
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OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 26, 2009 1:07 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
I really didn't intend to attack Bruce in particular. I wanted to emphasise that while conditions like Asperger's may predispose people towards certain behaviour patterns that are contrary to how I'd like the community to behave, they're not the fundamental cause and they don't provide an absolute excuse for any offence caused as a result.
My concern is that, as a community, we're too focused on acceptance of anyone who fits our model of what a Linux developer should be and are entirely willing to accept multiple character flaws as long as they don't completely prevent someone from fitting into that model. If someone later points out that they're being discouraged from involvement because of that person's behaviour, we're inclined to argue that since the behaviour doesn't conflict with our model then it's acceptable for one reason or another - they've got Asperger's, they're from a different cultural background, they're just like that and don't mean any harm. And when people like Bruce (who is at some level still identifiable as a community leader) make that argument, it makes it sound like we all agree.
I don't think that's helpful. I think we need to accept that the cost of alienating potential contributors is likely to be greater than the cost of asking the more extreme characters we work with to tone down their behaviour. I'd be shocked if any of them are utterly unable to cope, but I'm also entirely prepared to believe that it may be a slow process involving a lot of explicit explanations. That's something I'm willing to bear if the perception is that people think this is a good thing. But it does mean that we need to stop making excuses for people, no matter how high-profile they are. Let them make their own excuses and then judge them appropriately.
OK, I'll bite. Sides of this issue you might not be considering Posted Aug 26, 2009 1:33 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] they're from a different cultural background Ah, good one. E.g. Sino-Asian culture, I guess, would clash particularly badly with the more overtly-confrontational disagreement-resolution culture in free software. There really do seem to a number of related problems that could be solved through a collective effort to elevate our civility.
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