The FSF warns (again) against Mono
| From: | campaigns-AT-fsf.org | |
| To: | info-press-AT-gnu.org | |
| Subject: | [GNU/FSF Press] Microsoft's Empty Promise | |
| Date: | Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:18:46 -0400 | |
| Message-ID: | <20090716221846.GA27623@serenity.office.fsf.org> |
Last week, Microsoft extended the terms of their Community Promise to implementations of the ECMA 334 and 335 standards. You might think this means it's safe to write your software in C#. However, this promise is full of loopholes, and it's nowhere near enough to make C# safe. ### Why Worry About C#? ### Since we published Richard's article about Mono[1] last week, some people have been asking us why we're expressing special concern about free software developers relying on C# and Mono, instead of other languages. Sun probably has patents that cover Java. Maybe IBM has patents that cover C compilers. "Shouldn't we discourage the use of these too?" they ask. It's true that all software patents are a threat to developers--but that doesn't mean that all software patents are equally threatening. Different companies might have patents that *could* be used to attack other languages, but if we worried about every patent that *could* be used against us, we wouldn't get anything done. Microsoft's patents are much more dangerous: it's the only major software company that has declared itself the enemy of GNU/Linux and stated its intention to attack our community with patents. If Microsoft designed a patent trap into C#, that is no more than what it said it would do. The company has been quite clear about its intentions since late 2006. At a user conference in November that year, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said, responding to a question about their patent agreement with Novell: > ... the fact that [GNU/Linux] uses our patented intellectual > property is a problem for our shareholders. We spend $7 billion a > year on R&D, our shareholders expect us to protect or license or get > economic benefit from our patented innovations. So how do we somehow > get the appropriate economic return for our patented innovation...? (Seattle Post-Intellegencer, The Microsoft Blog, "Ballmer on Novell, Linux and patents," November 16, 2006. "Intellectual property" is a confusing term that should be avoided; to learn more, visit <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.html>.) A few days later, an interview with Microsoft President Bob Muglia was published, and he made it clear that they considered C# one of these so-called "patented innovations:" > There is a substantive effort in open source [sic] to bring such an > implementation of .Net to market, known as Mono and being driven by > Novell, and one of the attributes of the agreement we made with > Novell is that the intellectual property [sic] associated with that > is available to Novell customers. (eWeek.com, "Microsofts Muglia Talks Longhorn, Novell and Java", November 17, 2006.) They've been turning up the heat ever since. In May 2007, Microsoft followed all this up by announcing in a Fortune magazine interview that they believed GNU/Linux infringed 235 Microsoft patents. And recently they made it very clear that these were not idle threats: the company sued TomTom for using the VFAT filesystem implementation in the kernel Linux without buying a license from it. All of this can't simply be brushed aside. These are statements and actions made at the highest executive levels of the company. Using patents to divide and conquer the free software community is a fundamental part of their corporate strategy. Because of that, C# represents a unique threat to us. The language was developed inside Microsoft, so it's likely they have many patents to cover different aspects of its implementation. That would make free software implementations of C#, like Mono, an easy target for attack. The Community Promise does nothing to change any of this. Microsoft had an opportunity to take action and demonstrate that it meant us no harm with C#. Instead, they took meaningless half-measures that leave them with plenty of opportunities to hurt us. ### Incomplete Standards ### The ECMA 334 and 335 specifications describe the core C# language, including information about standard libraries that must be available in any compliant implementation. However, there are several libraries that are included with Mono, and commonly used by applications like Tomboy, that are not required by the standard. And just to be clear, we're not talking about Windows-specific libraries like ASP.NET and Windows Forms. Instead, we're talking about libraries under the System namespace that provide common functionality programmers expect in modern programming languages: binary object serialization, regular expressions, XPath and XSLT, and more. Because these libraries are not defined in the ECMA specifications, they are not protected in any way by Microsoft's Community Promise. If this were the only problem with the promise, it might be safe to use applications that avoid these libraries, and stick to what's in the standard. But even the code that's covered by the promise isn't completely safe. ### Figuring Out What's Necessary ### The Community Promise only extends to claims in Microsoft patents that are *necessary* to implement the covered specifications. Judging just by the size of its patent portfolio, it's likely that Microsoft holds patents which a complete standard implementation probably infringes even if it's not strictly necessary--maybe the patent covers a straightforward speed optimization, or some common way of performing some task. The Community Promise doesn't say anything about these patents, and so Microsoft can still use them to threaten standard implementations. ### Moving the Goalposts ### Let's say you've written an implementation of one of the specifications covered by the Community Promise, and you want to determine whether or not you'll be sued for infringing a certain Microsoft patent. The necessity question already makes it difficult enough to figure this out. But even if you manage it, you should make sure you check again tomorrow, because the Community Promise might not protect you then. The Community Promise does not give you any rights to exercise the patented claims. It only says that Microsoft will not sue you over claims in patents that it owns or controls. If Microsoft sells one of those patents, there's nothing stopping the buyer from suing everyone who uses the software. ### The Solution: A Comprehensive Patent License ### If Microsoft genuinely wants to reassure free software users that it does not intend to sue them for using Mono, it should grant the public an irrevocable patent license for all of its patents that Mono actually exercises. That would neatly avoid all of the existing problems with the Community Promise: it's broad enough in scope that we don't have to figure out what's covered by the specification or strictly necessary to implement it. And it would still be in force even if Microsoft sold the patents. This isn't an unreasonable request, either. GPLv3 requires distributors to provide a similar license when they convey modified versions of covered software, and plenty of companies large and small have had no problem doing that. Certainly one with Microsoft's resources should be able to manage this, too. If they're unsure how to go about it, they should get in touch with us; we'd be happy to work with them to make sure it's satisfactory. Until that happens, free software developers still should not write software that depends on Mono. C# implementations can still be attacked by Microsoft's patents: the Community Promise is designed to give the company several outs if it wants them. We don't want to see developers' hard work lost to the community if we lose the ability to use Mono, and until we eliminate software patents altogether[2], using another language is the best way to prevent that from happening. [1] http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono [2] To learn more about our End Soft Patents campaign, visit http://swpat.org/ _______________________________________________ FSF And GNU Press mailing list <info-press@gnu.org> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-press
Posted Jul 17, 2009 13:46 UTC (Fri)
by clugstj (subscriber, #4020)
[Link]
Posted Jul 17, 2009 13:50 UTC (Fri)
by trasz (guest, #45786)
[Link] (31 responses)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 13:57 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 14:32 UTC (Fri)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 14:44 UTC (Fri)
by regala (guest, #15745)
[Link] (1 responses)
Indeed, with FUD clearly stated as FUD:
"Microsoft is bad, because:
I am not that fond of that Do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do line, but lobbying is their job, after all.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 9:24 UTC (Mon)
by TheMadHatter (guest, #59661)
[Link]
Posted Jul 17, 2009 15:14 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Posted Jul 17, 2009 14:40 UTC (Fri)
by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 15:16 UTC (Fri)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link] (1 responses)
The "maybes" involved are of the type: "maybe that hungry fox will attack that nearby lamb". No no no, I'm just spreading anti-fox FUD, no one can prove what the fox is thinking. We should wait until after the attack before making any comment about the safety of leaving the lamb beside the fox. Despite various wordy announcements, MS still has broad unwaived patent rights on c# related things which could be used to launch patent threats against users/developers/distributors of Mono and related software in the future. Staying away from that area is simply common sense. (We should also try to end software patents, such as by instructing the USA's Supreme Court on how and why when they review Bilski)
Posted Jul 19, 2009 22:02 UTC (Sun)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
The promise basically *only* covers a *complete* implementation of the spec. And the spec is buggy and incomplete.
So if you reduce the spec to logic, you get something like "A = not B" and "If A and B then you are safe". Putting the two together, the only possible logical conclusion is that the promise is worthless, and you are not safe.
So saying the promise isn't worth the paper it's written on is NOT FUD. Just applying basic mathematical logical reduction shows that the promise will self-destruct. So you can't rely on it.
Cheers,
Posted Jul 17, 2009 15:20 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (6 responses)
Trying to scare people using "maybes" is what FUD is all about.
Perhaps so, but given Microsoft's past behavior, I don't think Linux distros should have anything to do with Mono technology. "Maybe" Microsoft won't try it's darndest to destroy Linux and Free Software... and "maybe" I really did win that lottery mentioned in the e-mail from Nigeria.
In 1997, "The Right To Read" may have seemed like far-fetched FUD, but in the days of the DMCA, it's not so funny. RMS was prescient on that topic; maybe he knows a thing or two about the world.
Posted Jul 17, 2009 15:52 UTC (Fri)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link] (5 responses)
(RMS is not arguing against the existence of Mono, or its use to run C# programs on free operating systems, or even against including it by default in Linux distributions, but rather he warns against writing new free applications in C#.)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 16:44 UTC (Fri)
by setecastronomy (guest, #59621)
[Link]
"The trouble is, all these 'Microsoft patent' arguments apply equally well to Samba, and distros are happy to ship that..." After paying Microsoft a one-time sum of 10,000 Euros, the PFIF will make available to the Samba Team under non-disclosure terms the documentation needed for implementation of all of the workgroup server protocols covered by the EU decision.
"Although the documentation itself will be held in confidence by the PFIF and Samba Team engineers, the agreement allows the publication of the source code of the implementation of these protocols without any further restrictions. This is fully compatible with versions two and three of the GNU General Public License (GPL). Samba is published under the GNU GPL which is the most widely used of all Free Software licenses. In addition it allows discussion of the protocol information amongst implementers which will aid technical cooperation between engineers. Under the agreement, Microsoft is required to make available and keep current a list of patent numbers it believes are related to the Microsoft implementation of the workgroup server protocols, without granting an implicit patent license to any Free Software implementation.
The second part is what (imho) sets the PFIF agreement apart from the community promise. C.f.
Posted Jul 17, 2009 16:46 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Exactly. Because mono is good for existing C# programs: may be you'll be
used by Microsoft in the future, may be not, but in the end - without CLR
implementation you can not use such programs at all. By the same logic samba should be shipped and used where it's
unavoaidable (for example to work with existing Windows-based systems), but
not for the tasks where it can be replaced with something else (for example
you should use real LDAP server, not Samba's AD replacement in pure Linux
environment). AFICS Samba is used exactly in this fashion: it exists for
interoperability with Windows, but not for anything else. It's the sad world we live in (Samba really can be better for some
things then "native alternatives") but we can not easily swap it for other
and so yes, we should treat Samba like mono: use it for interoperability
with Windows, but for nothing else.
Posted Jul 17, 2009 22:20 UTC (Fri)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link] (1 responses)
I can see why that worries some.
Posted Jul 22, 2009 15:46 UTC (Wed)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link]
Posted Jul 18, 2009 17:01 UTC (Sat)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link]
However a lawsuit against people distributing Mono would probably be seen as Microsoft limiting distribution of their development platform. Mono is used to run .NET software on other platforms, and antitrust authorities do not care so much about that. If there was the same awareness about development platforms as there is for interoperability, Mono would probably be in the clear.
Posted Jul 17, 2009 16:48 UTC (Fri)
by jeff@uclinux.org (guest, #8024)
[Link] (15 responses)
I suppose you were not the one on the receiving end of the strategic VFAT lawsuit, so it's safe to
I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me. Why didn't you believe me?
Posted Jul 17, 2009 21:34 UTC (Fri)
by rahvin (guest, #16953)
[Link] (5 responses)
Microsoft doesn't want their patents to be worked around because then they can't be used as a weapon. This is why they won't say which patents they believe apply. Tack that in with how they used the VFAT patent against Tom-Tom and everyone should be absolutely convinced how MS will proceed once Linux starts hurting windows market share. It's imperative that like Samba we treat these MS "inventions" as toxic elements that exist ONLY for interoperability with windows and are never ever a required part of any distribution.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 0:55 UTC (Sat)
by mikov (guest, #33179)
[Link] (4 responses)
I have never seen this put so clearly. 100% agreed.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 17:57 UTC (Sat)
by directhex (guest, #58519)
[Link] (3 responses)
Saying "this app is free from this patent" means two levels of work need to be done
1) you need to determine that the patent you hold is enforcable, and relates to the kind of thing an app does (the "easy" stage, although if you own thousands of patents with a combination of hundreds of thousands of claims, it might actually be tricky to identify specific ones)
2) you need to perform a detailed analysis of the app in order to determine whether its implementation really does infringe on the patent in (1)
A general "yeah, we probably have patents on X, or stuff like it" is much much cheaper to say - albeit less precise in its implications. But saying "yeah, we probably have patents on X, but don't worry, whatever they are, you can use them" is somewhat LESS concerning than "you can use patent X" whilst keeping Y and Z secret
Posted Jul 19, 2009 0:41 UTC (Sun)
by mikov (guest, #33179)
[Link] (2 responses)
Patent X might be utter crap (like the long file names patent), but as soon as Microsoft announces it, everybody would have to stop using it, possibly for many years until it is invalidated.
Damn. It appears that no matter what Microsoft does, short of granting Comprehensive Patent License, it is all very very bad.
Posted Jul 19, 2009 20:53 UTC (Sun)
by directhex (guest, #58519)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2009 1:28 UTC (Mon)
by mikov (guest, #33179)
[Link]
Seriously though, I actually don't think that Microsoft is "evil" - that would be ridiculous. They are a for-profit corporation, which is allowed and expected to do whatever possible within the law for said profits. Clearly enforcing their patents is legal and desirable from their point of view.
Objectively I can't blame them for that. But clearly they are in a position of strength, which honestly scares me.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 6:25 UTC (Sat)
by AlexHudson (guest, #41828)
[Link] (8 responses)
Eventually you end up with nothing. This is not a worthwhile or long-term tactic, anyone who thinks there are many "Mono-only" patents out there that we can avoid by just burying our head in the sand is thinking extremely wishfully.
And if you look, you'll also see Microsoft aren't attacking technologies like Mono. That wouldn't make sense; that would turn people off .net. They're attacking things which are completely unrelated but competitive: e.g., having people sign agreements over the Linux kernel.
Microsoft aren't going to be attacking the likes of Mono and OpenOffice.org that soon. The battle lines are in a very different area, and tearing ourselves up over stuff Microsoft likely gives two hoots about is undoubtedly helping them.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 14:14 UTC (Sat)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (7 responses)
Not everyone is willing to cede ground to Microsoft simply because they have patents in areas.
But you have to weigh the risks and benefits. Obviously, we'd fight for the right to run (for example) Linux, the X Window System, SSH, etc. because they are core parts of the free software infrastructure. If you are concerned about Windows interoperability, you'll also fight for the right to run Samba.
C# and Mono simply don't seem (to me, anyway) to have enough benefits to outweigh the risks. Besides, the patent threat is only one problem. The far larger problem is trying to keep up with a technology Microsoft controls and can change on a whim. The Linux implementations of C# and Mono will always be poor substitutes for the "real thing", and Microsoft will use that as a weapon against free software.
Posted Jul 19, 2009 10:30 UTC (Sun)
by AlexHudson (guest, #41828)
[Link] (6 responses)
The situation isn't vastly different to other areas anyway: MS have long had arguably a much better C/C++ compiler than gcc; big apps like OpenOffice.org enjoy a performance boost on W32. We lag them technologically in many areas. That's a different issue to software freedom and always has been.
I'm sure plenty of people won't see the benefit in using Mono. For the most part, they are not the target audience for it anyway: the target are those vast hoards of developers who are competent in Visual Studio but who would run screaming from vi/emacs.
Posted Jul 19, 2009 16:12 UTC (Sun)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (5 responses)
I'm sure plenty of people won't see the benefit in using Mono. For the most part, they are not the target audience for it anyway: the target are those vast hoards of developers who are competent in Visual Studio but who would run screaming from vi/emacs.
And for that constituency, Mono will fail unless it slavishly keeps up with Microsoft, feature-for-feature. The people you're talking about are first and foremost Windows developers, who will deign to port to non-Windows platforms as long as it's a no-brainer. They won't show the slightest interest in Mono unless it can be used to port Windows apps effortlessly. And this is doomed to failure.
Mono and C# have lots of risks and no benefits for Linux users. Likewise, they are not yet suitable for Windows developers looking for an effortless port. All Mono and C# do is waste developers' time when they could be working on more valuable free software projects.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 7:41 UTC (Mon)
by AlexHudson (guest, #41828)
[Link] (4 responses)
The offer is "use your Windows dev skills on other platforms". That's why we've seen take-up of Mono in places like the games industry: it's about transfer of _skills_, not transfer of _source_.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 11:47 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (3 responses)
The offer is "use your Windows dev skills on other platforms". That's why we've seen take-up of Mono in places like the games industry: it's about transfer of _skills_, not transfer of _source_.
Sorry, I don't buy this. Any competent programmer can pick up a different language and environment fairly quickly. I own a software company, and I'm in charge of hiring developers. Any developer who is scared off because we use a different language or don't use Visual Studio would automatically go into my "do not hire" list.
What a lot of people call "Windows dev skills" are nothing more than dilettante-level noodling around with pretty IDEs. Once such "developers" run smack into any non-Windowsism (which they will), they get stuck and panic. I've observed this several times in my career, which is why I no longer bother hiring developers unless they have some non-Windows experience.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 11:56 UTC (Mon)
by AlexHudson (guest, #41828)
[Link] (1 responses)
In any event, it's not entirely about capability (though there would definitely be people entirely stuck moving from VS to [for example] vim). It's about transferability of skills.
To much argument about Mono is "I don't need/like it therefore nobody else should do either". It misses the point.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 14:05 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
To much argument about Mono is "I don't need/like it therefore nobody else should do either". It misses the point.
The point is that Mono does nothing very useful for the Linux community. It's also very risky for that same community, and it commits the Mono developers to slavishly following proprietary standards set by a company very hostile to free software.
So really, I don't care if people use Mono on Linux. I would care very much if Mono were installed by default on a Linux distro, or became used for critical components of a Linux distro. That's crossing the line.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 21:43 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Jul 17, 2009 14:28 UTC (Fri)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 23:25 UTC (Fri)
by Ed_L. (guest, #24287)
[Link] (2 responses)
FSF suggests we minimize our infringement of patents for which we have no license. Their legal opinion appears to be that Microsoft's Community Promise is not a license. They have offered to help Microsoft make it one.
In contrast Java is now GPLv2. Since Java is licensed under GPLv2 by SUN Microsystems, GPLv2 appears to grant (again I'm not a lawyer) an implicit "license to use" any of SUN's patents impacting Java:
I agree that C#/CLI is a sharp language. But a programming language does not stand independent from the libraries that make is useful, and I share the belief that patent clarification remains TBD.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 1:00 UTC (Sat)
by mikov (guest, #33179)
[Link]
See this old post of mine fore more details:
Posted Jul 20, 2009 10:49 UTC (Mon)
by pjm (guest, #2080)
[Link]
(IANAL.)
Posted Jul 17, 2009 14:41 UTC (Fri)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link]
Posted Jul 17, 2009 20:02 UTC (Fri)
by mikov (guest, #33179)
[Link] (2 responses)
Anything that RMS or the FSF says is usually grounded in solid logic. Everybody would be wise to at least consider it.
As for me personally, and the businesses I am involved with, I would avoid Mono.
Which really saddens me because I like Mono. The language is better than Java, the implementation starts faster, it feels more lightweight, it supports static compilation, etc.
I have been on the receiving end of an IP-related lawsuit and it is an experience which one never forgets.
Posted Jul 17, 2009 20:38 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
RMS (like Drepper) exist in two modes: free-flowing conversations and
essays. While in mailing list and other fast-moving forums RMS and Drepper
looks abrasive, arrogant and (quite often) just plain wrong with essays and
articles we have different situation altogether. There every word is
carefully cosidered and aligned to the rest of the article and it's very
hard to find actual loopholes or errors. Funny how two persons who hate each other so much can be so
similar... And yes, you can hate RMS's guts but you can rarely fault his logic when
he does have time to carefully describe his position. And time and again
reality shows that his worst fears have unfortunate habit of becoming true
(often, but not always - Qt licensing issue was safely resolved, for
example, but... can we be sure it's not result of GNOME existence?). After
Tomcat's story we can safely forget Microsoft's "peace rhetoric" and so
everyone should be vary of mono - this is known trojan horse. It's danger
can be reduced and contained, but it'll never go away.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 0:51 UTC (Sat)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link]
RMS can sound like a stubborn, arrogant, pigheaded zealot (possibly because that's part of his makeup ;). But his arrogant, stubborn, pigheaded stick-to-it-ness changed the world. For the better. Not many of us can claim that. I've never met him, but if I do, I will thank him for his life's work and beg forgiveness for being one of those annoying anonymous people analyzing his personality on the internet.
Posted Jul 18, 2009 17:53 UTC (Sat)
by directhex (guest, #58519)
[Link] (8 responses)
Show your working.
Hint: it doesn't, which demonstrates the FSF's inability to apply basic research
Posted Jul 19, 2009 15:55 UTC (Sun)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Jul 19, 2009 19:34 UTC (Sun)
by directhex (guest, #58519)
[Link] (6 responses)
How does that even make sense?
"Do this, but don't say you've done it"?
Posted Jul 19, 2009 19:40 UTC (Sun)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Jul 19, 2009 21:10 UTC (Sun)
by directhex (guest, #58519)
[Link] (4 responses)
So. In your considered legal opinion, what needs to be done to make SQlite access "safe"? Which specific details of System.Data make it dangerous? What do apps need to do? Is renaming it to "Panda.Data" enough for all legal risk to suddenly vanish, in your mind? If not, what do you suggest instead?
Posted Jul 20, 2009 7:40 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2009 8:58 UTC (Mon)
by kragil (guest, #34373)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2009 9:22 UTC (Mon)
by directhex (guest, #58519)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2009 9:31 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
Posted Jul 18, 2009 20:06 UTC (Sat)
by speaker2animals (guest, #59643)
[Link] (1 responses)
More importantly, Microsoft probably has patents that cover these. See below. Windows Forms. Instead, we're talking about libraries under the
System namespace that provide common functionality programmers
expect in modern programming languages: binary object serialization,
regular expressions, XPath and XSLT, and more.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
- they ate my dog;
- they ate your granny's;
- they ate yours
- they said 3 years ago they would eat anyone's dogs in the world"
anyway, this article is just another rephrasing of what RMS said last week, so much ado for nothing.
Indeed, with FUD clearly stated as FUD:
"Microsoft is bad, because:
- they ate my dog; - Fat chance - they'd get eaten
- they ate your granny's;
- they ate yours
- they said 3 years ago they would eat anyone's dogs in the world"
I am not that fond of that Do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do line, but lobbying is their job, after all.
Lobbying is part of their job? Prove it. With direct links to the part of the Federal Register (or other regulation) that says that lobbying is part of their job.
Producing high quality software is their job. Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten this.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
If the FUD is true, then it's an excellent reason to avoid Mono, no?
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
It's in the article
It's in the article
Wol
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
http://www.samba.org/samba/PFIF/
You've correctly pointed to the biggest difference, but not the implications
RMS is not arguing against the existence of Mono, or its use to
run C# programs on free operating systems, or even against including it by
default in Linux distributions, but rather he warns against writing new
free applications in C#.
The trouble is, all these 'Microsoft patent' arguments apply
equally well to Samba, and distros are happy to ship that...
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
I think you have to look at the bigger picture to know why distros are more comfortable with Samba (even if there is always some danger). The Samba team has testified before the European Commission in an antitrust trial against Microsoft. Samba is used to interoperate with Windows on the network. That should make Microsoft think before using their patents against anyone distributing it.
Novell and Samba
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
discussion) still argue for the use of MicroSoft patented IP, in this case mono, after the VFAT
debacle which is still(!) unfolding even now.
ignore their other patents even though they themselves say they will be trying to monetize and use
them as competitive weapons.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
If Microsoft was truly interested in not using the patents against Linux in the future they would note which patents apply. Their refusal to even list the patents they believe Linux infringes is tantamount proof that they intend to use them against Linux in the future because if they told us which ones apply, developers and free software lawyers could work together to evade the patents (or they could work to invalidate the patent) like they are trying to do with the VFAT patches.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
The FSF warns (again) against Mono: and correctly so
keybindings simply fall out of my skull. But everyone knows Emacs is a
religion as well as an editor, so forcing me to use anything else would be
religious intolerance. :)
If the patents are sold, is the promise no longer enforceable?
The Community Promise does not give you any rights to exercise the
patented claims. It only says that Microsoft will not sue you over
claims in patents that it owns or controls. If Microsoft sells one of
those patents, there's nothing stopping the buyer from suing everyone
who uses the software.
Would any legally trained person care to comment on this? Would the buyer of the patents still be estopped in the same way as Microsoft, or is transferring the ownership an easy way to get out of the promise?
I am NOT legally trained, but I do think you have again identified the most cogent item in FSF's argument: A "Promise Not to Sue" is not a "License to Use."
If the patents are sold, is the promise no longer enforceable?
GPLv2 Section 7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
My bold. I don't know if SUN might also have issued an explicit Java patent license. Does anyone else?
If the patents are sold, is the promise no longer enforceable?
http://slashdot.org/~cecom/journal/153146
Does GPL implicitly grant patent license ?
Finding out what the patents are
The language was developed inside
Microsoft, so it's likely they have many patents to cover different
aspects of its implementation.
I suppose it is likely; one way to settle this question would be for Novell or someone else to find out which patents Microsoft holds that are likely to apply. Because this just means reading patents held by one company, it would be much cheaper than a full patent search. Perhaps then they could ask Microsoft to acknowledge that some of them are 'Necessary' for a C# implementation, and thus definitely covered by their no-sue promise.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
There are two RMSes
Anything that RMS or the FSF says is usually grounded in solid
logic. Everybody would be wise to at least consider it.
There are two RMSes
This is very well put.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
They prefer to make it up themselves.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
languages. Sun probably has patents that cover Java. Maybe IBM has
patents that cover C compilers. "Shouldn't we discourage the use of
these too?" they ask.
The patents we need protection from, and hence that need to be covered in the MCP, are those patents that cover things in C# and CLI that are unique to C# and CLI (well, unique modulo patent office incompetence at recognizing when software is new, useful, and non-obvious).
Regular expressions, et. al., are not unique to C# and CLI. The C# and CLI specifications of those are the same as they are in most other languages and runtimes commonly used on Linux. If Microsoft has any patents that cover those, those patents are just as valid against Java, C, and every other Linux language as they are against Mono's implementation of C# and CLI.
Microsoft might also have patents covering particular algorithms they used to implement regular expressions and those other common things in their implementation of C#, but those particular algorithms would be no more likely to be in Mono than that are likely to be in any other independent implementation of regular expressions or the rest.
The above argument completely deals with the section named "incomplete standards" in the FSF's argument. The same argument also deals with the next section, "Figuring Out What's Necessary", where they worry Microsoft patents might cover some common way of performing some task, and so Mono could infringe that. Such a patent would cover that in the non-Mono language systems, too. If Microsoft is going to sue over such a patent, they are far more likely to go after something other than Mono, where they won't run into major estoppel and laches issues. I think Java would be their most likely target, as Java is a major competitor of theirs in the enterprise.
The "Moving the Goalposts" section stands up a bit better, in that there is nothing that is obviously wrong at first glance. However, it shows a fundamental understanding of what a patent is. When you get a patent on something, that gives you the right to exclude others from practicing that patent. It does NOT give you a right the practice the patent yourself. A popular example given in law school is that if you got a patent covering 3-legged chairs, you could stop others from making 3-legged chairs, but you might not be able to make 3-legged chairs either, because someone else might have a patent on legged sitting devices. Hence, if you were to license your 3-legged chair patent to someone else, you would be foolish to write your license as saying they are allowed to make 3-legged chairs. Your license would only say that you will not use your patent to stop them from making 3-legged chairs.
The second concern that the FSF raises in that section, the effects of a transfer of patent ownership on the promise not to sue, has more merit. Courts have leaned toward applying such promises to subsequent assignees, but some have gone the other way. At least one major manual of patent practice I know of recommends using a license over a bare promise just so you can write into the license that it applies to assignees and not leave any doubt. (Ironically, the FSF insists that the GPL be interpreted not as a contact but rather as a bare license, which means that it has the same theoretical problem).
Summary: after eliminating the legally erroneous parts of the FSF's argument, we are left with a possible concern that MCP might not apply to assignees if Microsoft ever transfers its patents to someone else (BTW, this would have to be a legitimate transfer--courts would see through a sham transfer to a shell company just for the purpose of getting out of MCP). For me, that isn't enough to be of concern--I will continue on my Linux systems to use whatever software gets the job done best, even if it is written using Mono.
Posted Jul 20, 2009 18:19 UTC (Mon)
by makomk (guest, #51493)
[Link]
Posted Jul 20, 2009 9:45 UTC (Mon)
by sylware (guest, #35259)
[Link]
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
More importantly, Microsoft probably has patents that cover
these.
See below.
Yes, but the patents won't be specifically aimed at that software, which
gives more wiggle room to get in there with prior art and invalidate them.
Regular expressions, et. al., are not unique to C# and CLI.
The C#
and CLI specifications of those are the same as they are in most other
languages and runtimes commonly used on Linux.
Yes and no. There are certain language-specific design decisions that have
to be made when interfacing to regular expressions, XPath etc from a
language. The open question is whether Microsoft has patented any aspect
of the interface between them and .Net. (I have a feeling such patents
wouldn't stand up well in court if it wasn't for the novelty requirement
being severely weakened these days.)
they worry Microsoft patents might cover some common way of
performing some task, and so Mono could infringe that. Such a patent would
cover that in the non-Mono language systems, too.
Of course it could cover non-Mono languages. The concern is that Microsoft
might have patented some common way
of performing a task specific to implementing C#/.net. By tying it to
C#/.net they'd again make it much harder to find good prior art, or even
totally impossible.
If Microsoft is going to sue over such a patent, they are far
more likely to go after something other than Mono, where they won't run
into major estoppel and laches issues.
IANAL, so this is a bit beyond me. I can imagine the courts wouldn't look
kindly on such a trick - but this assumes the defence can convince the
court that infringing said patent was a likely or inevitable consequence
of implementing the ECMA standard, which would be difficult in itself.
Hence, if you were to license your 3-legged chair patent to
someone
else, you would be foolish to write your license as saying they are
allowed to make 3-legged chairs. Your license would only say that you will
not use your patent to stop them from making 3-legged chairs.
No, it would say that it gave you a license to practice their patent on 3-
legged chairs and would be legally binding on future purchasers of the
patent.
This is not a patent license, it's a promise not to sue, and as
far as I can tell it doesn't bind anyone that Microsoft sells the patents
onto.
The FSF warns (again) against Mono
The real issue is that mono a huge technical kludge driven by MS (commercially too).
That's fairly enough to stay far away from it, period.
Hope debian and canonical won't force upon users such a controversial bloat (canonical plz). Each time I install a GNU/Linux Ubuntu, I must remove mono: tomboy is useless as my users don't give a damn of its use (same fate for the sainer sticky notes), and gthumb does the job instead of fspot, heard there are other image viewers, even ligther than gthumb and which do the job too.
The only real interest of mono is to be what is wine for win32/64, just a compatibility layer.
