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Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

April 24, 2009

This article was contributed by Bruce Byfield

The announcement a few weeks ago of the preliminary plans for GNOME 3.0 catapulted the GNOME Shell and GNOME Zeitgeist into the spotlight. Previously little-known, these programs are now identified as the basis of a new user experience in GNOME 3.0. Meanwhile, both are in their early stages, and few have tried them, with the result that they are surrounded by question marks.

What exactly are these programs? What vision do they share in common? Most importantly of all, are they capable of bearing the expectations placed upon them? Any answers to these questions must be tentative, because both projects are in rapid development, and certain to change dramatically by the time GNOME 3.0 is released. All the same, those in search of preliminary answers can find them with a bit of quick compiling.

The GNOME Shell

[GNOME Shell]

The GNOME Shell is now intended as the replacement for the current panel, window manager, and desktop. The project site gives detailed instructions for building the latest version of the application. These are relatively straightforward, although you might need to add ~/bin to your path in order to complete the compile. You should also know that the instructions apparently assume that you are using Metacity, the current version of GNOME's default window manager, since they do not work with any other.

After compiling, you can install Xephyr, a nested X server, to run the GNOME Shell in a window on your current desktop. Alternatively, you can temporarily replace Metacity with the GNOME Shell, following the instructions provided by the project. In my experience, using Xephyr is more likely to be successful.

However you start GNOME Shell, its differences from the GNOME 2 series of releases is immediately obvious. Not only the layout but the logic with which you use it is radically different from any GNOME desktop you have ever seen.

Across the top is a simplified panel, with the time and user on the right and a button marked "Activities" on the left. It contains no applets, menu, or system notification, and the taskbar is on a separate panel on the bottom.

The Activities button is the key to the GNOME Shell. As in KDE 4, in the GNOME Shell, "activities" refers to virtual workspaces, and that term was selected to indicate how to use them. In fact, when you start the GNOME Shell, you are looking at a full-screen workspace with the applications xeyes, xlogo, and xterm on it. Click the Activities button, and the workspace shrinks to reveal the complete desktop.

That desktop is as simple as the panel. On the left is a list of recently used applications that can be expanded by clicking the link marked "More". Recent documents have a similar arrangement below. Each expands into a complete list in a second column of menu items if necessary, with multiple pages.

To the right are large thumbnails of available workspaces. These thumbnails change size as their number increases or decreases, or a menu expands into a second column. When you select an application or document, it opens full-screen. Click the Activities button, and it repositions itself as a thumbnail on the current activity, sized and arranged so as not to overlap with anything else on the activity. If you want to use a thumbnailed application, you either click on it or on its taskbar listing to run it full-sized. In effect, workspaces are launchpads for applications, rather than places that you actually work upon.

As a desktop, the GNOME Shell is extremely economical with space, and well-suited for giving the currently active application a maximum amount of space. However, if monitor space is not your concern, then the GNOME Shell can quickly become irritating. You are continually clicking to expose one item and hide another. Nor is the user experience helped by the fact that you currently have to make frequently wide sweeps with the mouse up to the Activities button, although no doubt keybindings will eventually remove this annoyance.

Nor is there any easy way to work with two items side by side (although you can do so from the taskbar), nor to track the activity that an application is performing without making it active, nor to jump to a particular activity in a single click. These limitations may be reduced or eliminated later, but, for now, they give the GNOME Shell the appearance of an interface intended for mobile devices, where such features are less often needed.

The GNOME Shell may put the desktop into a strong position for the future by providing a common interface for all the platforms it might be installed upon. Given the rapid growth of mobile devices, having them as the main basis for interface design may be an inevitable evolution. However, it risks short-changing workstation users, whose computing can be more demanding than that of mobile users.

GNOME Zeitgeist

[GNOME Zeitgeist]

GNOME Zeitgeist is reminiscent of Nemo, in that both replace standard file managers based on the directory tree and the desktop with ones based upon a calendar and other criteria. Both seem to assume that users do not want to know where their files are, or to hunt for them visually — they just want their files when they need them. What you think of GNOME Zeitgeist will probably depend on how much you agree with that assumption.

Unlike the case with the GNOME shell, the Zeitgeist project offers little assistance to downloaders. Fortunately, all you need to do is install Bazaar Version Control, and run the command bzr branch lp:gnome-zeitgeist while having an Internet connection to download.

Once downloaded, there is no need to compile. Instead, just go to the download directory and enter sh ./zeitgeist-daemon.sh to start the service (probably in a separate window or in the background), followed by sh ./zeitgeist-journal.sh to run the main graphical interface.

GNOME Zeitgeist opens on a three day calendar, showing yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and a list of files accessed on each day. This is the view offered when you click the "Recent" icon in the toolbar. You can also click the "Older" or "Newer" icons to change the dates in the three-pane display, or the "Calendar" to change to the view to one appropriate for a particular date.

Other ways of viewing files include Bookmarks, Tags, and Filters for file types, all of which are available in at least one existing file manager, although not with the same ease of use as in GNOME Zeitgeist.

If you return to the download directory, you will also find two additional pieces of GNOME Zeitgeist that have yet to be integrated into the main interface: zeitgeist-timeline.sh, which looks as though it presents a longer, alternative view of files created each day, and zeitgeist-project.sh, which presumably groups related files together. Other criteria for finding files, such as by location, are due to be added later.

As a collection of features in a traditional file manager, Zeitgeist would be a welcome enhancement. However, having Zeitgeist as a default file manager raises numerous questions. Is its assumption of the average users' preferences correct? Or will it create another barrier between desktop users and the command line by promoting a different concept of how files are accessed? Would users be better off if they were encouraged to organize their files, instead of just dumping them in their home directories?

From one perspective, GNOME Zeitgeist might be seen as the equivalent of a word processor that favors manual formatting over the creation of styles — as an application that encourages sloppy computer habits. Others, however, might argue that such programs are simply being realistic about users' work habits.

Pain or paradise?

Neither the GNOME Shell nor GNOME Zeitgeist should be judged on speed or looks yet. Both projects are still at the stage of adding functionality. However, enough functionality exists in both that a few preliminary comments are possible.

First, even together, the GNOME Shell and GNOME Zeitgeist seem slight to build an entire new desktop around. Although each is an interesting innovation, are the two enough to "revamp" the user experience, as the announcement of GNOME 3.0 promises? So far, it is uncertain that they are. Moreover, each is primarily a change at the interface level. To what extent either will require other GNOME applications to be rewritten, and to what extent GNOME's back end libraries will need to be overhauled is still being determined. So far, the news about GNOME 3.0 plans suggests that the rewriting of the backend may be fairly minimal.

Just as importantly, whether the two will create a common experience is still up in the air. So far, the two application seem to be proceeding along different lines of thought about usability. In particular, while the GNOME Shell is all about economical use of desktop space, GNOME Zeitgeist works best in a large window. And while the GNOME Shell radically changes how users interact with the desktop, GNOME Zeitgeist's interface is much more like the applications to which they are accustomed. At some point, there will probably have to be an agreement on standard designs if the two are going to integrate well.

Finally, while few would claim that the user experience on any computer desktop is perfected, will users accept such radical rethinking? Both projects are attempting to make the user experience easier, but both depart strongly from everything that users have become accustomed to over the last two decades. Considering that KDE 4.0 was roughly received, despite the fact that it was an evolution of the existing desktop, not a complete departure, GNOME 3.0 may run the risk of provoking its own user revolt.

Of course, these are early days, and the validity or absurdity of such concerns will become clearer as both projects progress. How GNOME 3.0 is marketed and documented will also affect its reception. But, so far, the GNOME Shell and GNOME Zeitgeist arouse as much apprehension for GNOME 3.0 as hope. We'll have to wait to see which was more justified.


(Log in to post comments)

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 19:01 UTC (Fri) by pranith (subscriber, #53092) [Link]

These both do not constitute the core of GNOME 3.0. There are various changes planned. Like in GTK libs for one. Removing the support for older libs is one of the most important one. The 2.0 series will not be supported.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 19:28 UTC (Fri) by RainCT (subscriber, #57473) [Link]

«Nor is the user experience helped by the fact that you currently have to make frequently wide sweeps with the mouse up to the Activities button, although no doubt keybindings will eventually remove this annoyance.»

Try Alt+F1 (which works as well for gnome-panel) or the super key.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 18:53 UTC (Sat) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

What "super" key?

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 19:37 UTC (Sat) by RainCT (subscriber, #57473) [Link]

The key next to Alt

Posted Apr 25, 2009 19:47 UTC (Sat) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

Oh, that thing. So, what happens, exactly, in this new desktop regime when I poke the proprietary-logo or cloverleaf key?

The key next to Alt

Posted Apr 25, 2009 20:06 UTC (Sat) by RainCT (subscriber, #57473) [Link]

Perhaps that it displays/hides the overlay (ie., it does the same as clicking on "Activities")?

Why don't you try it out yourself ;).

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 20:46 UTC (Fri) by sebas (subscriber, #51660) [Link]

I'd be interested in how the scaling and preview of the desktop is done?
Is that the arrival of Clutter already? Will the new GNOME shell require a
video card and driver that is able to do compositing? Are there fallback
options for those that cannot or do not want to use compositing?

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 21:42 UTC (Fri) by jayavarman (guest, #19600) [Link]

Yes, it is using Clutter. My understanding is that there won't be fallbacks, unless someone comes up with an implementation that doesn't jeopardize the current design and leanness of the code.

This is 2009 after all and a new desktop shouldn't compromise on old hardware. For older hardware you have alternatives like XFCE.

Why would you not want to use compositing?

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 23:31 UTC (Fri) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]

Well let me tell you something. Here I have some freakin' Nvidia 7800GT, and my thought was that with a card that powerful, a 2D-composited desktop with some simple 3D effects should totally fly with, like, 300 fps. But here I am, with KDE4, and that doesn't look too smooth at all. Yes, it's bearable, even to the point that I decided to leave this hush-mush on, but jeez, sometimes I just want to run IceWM for a change. It's SO much more responsive. Which makes me wonder, is it really 2009 or what?

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 2:03 UTC (Sat) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

Have you tried the latest Nvidia drivers? With 180.29 and up, I have had no problems with KDE4 (I have a GeForce 8600M GS).

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 9:32 UTC (Sat) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]

That's what I use right now. Somehow I've got the feeling that my notebook's GeForce7400 is better with compiz than my desktop 7800GT.

Point is, compiz and friends are quite demanding, be it year 2009 or not.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 7:33 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]

They are not demanding, NVIDIA just sucks. To say it in short. Even Intel graphics with maybe 1/10th of processing power and bandwidth of your 7800GT works pretty fluently compiz.

By the time these applications are ready, either a) NVIDIA fixes their drivers (very probable, but specific card owners might be left in the cold), b) Nouveau will come to the rescue from binary blobs c) change to FLOSS-friendly manufacturer (AMD, Intel, maybe Via soon).

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 8:25 UTC (Thu) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]

Actually, my experience with Intel was a bit worse than with Nvidia. Anyways, drivers or whatnot - my main point is that right now Linux desktop isn't at the place where it can just silently enable Compiz and suppose everything would work nicely. The "try another card" approach doesn't pass muster here.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 10:06 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Because you want to use 3D? Unless you're one of the roughly 2% of people
who can use DRI2 and kernel modesetting, and possibly even then,
compositing and other apps trying to use OpenGL really don't get on, IIRC.

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 25, 2009 10:44 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Unless you're one of the roughly 2% of people who can use DRI2 and kernel modesetting, and possibly even then, compositing and other apps trying to use OpenGL really don't get on, IIRC.

Do you believe that'll be the case 2-3 years down the road? There are enough support to develop this thing now and if you'll be unable to use DRI2 and kernel modesetting when GNOME 3 will be ready it'll be your own fault...

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 25, 2009 12:21 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Aha. So everyone has to replace their current machine to use GNOME 3?

I remember when Linux worked well even on machines more than three years
old. (I generally upgrade only every eight years or so, because it takes
that long for the old machine to start to seem slow.)

It's nice to know that this is being comprehensively forgotten.

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 25, 2009 16:03 UTC (Sat) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I generally upgrade only every eight years or so,

Yep. All our desktops at work run Linux, and all of the machines are at least 5 years old. If GNOME stops working on our hardware, we'll switch our non-technical users to something else (probably XFCE.) The developers already stay away from GNOME, so no problems there.

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 25, 2009 16:36 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Have no fear. This will be like when that awful spatial fad swept the Gnome community. http://www.bytebot.net/geekdocs/spatial-nautilus.html

Gnome discovered (after shipping unfortunately) that spatial actually sucks rocks in general usage. The distros turned off spatial for one release, Nautilus backpedaled, and within 6 months everything was back the way it was.

I also submit Longhorn for your consideration. Microsoft explored and marketed all these exciting new technologies, then jettisoned them all before shipping Vista.

Let the Gnome guys play for now. Hopefully they hit on some really neat new features. And hopefully the distros will paper over their mistakes.

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 25, 2009 20:28 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> Nautilus backpedaled, and within 6 months everything was back the way it was.

Do you only use Ubuntu for your desktop?

With Fedora and Debian, at least, spatial mode is still the default, and always have been the default since that was introduced by Gnome. As far as I know Ubuntu is the only one that does browser mode by default.

(Of course users can select one or the other)

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 25, 2009 21:45 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Ack, yes, you caught me. Debian and Centos on the servers, Ubuntu on the desktop. I try Fedora every few releases but I run into graphics (Radeon 3650) and printer (Samsung ML2510) driver issues, too lazy to fix em.

Microsoft and Apple ditched spatial almost a decade ago; I thought Linux had finally caught up. My condolences to anyone who still has to open and drag around 22 separate windows just to find the song you want to play. :)

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 26, 2009 14:23 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Oh, Samsung's proprietary printer driver is awful. Ditch it and just use
pxlmono...

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted Apr 27, 2009 8:13 UTC (Mon) by dwmw2 (subscriber, #2063) [Link]

"I try Fedora every few releases but I run into graphics (Radeon 3650) and printer (Samsung ML2510) driver issues, too lazy to fix em."
What bug numbers? Seems strange that the same or similar bugs would be present in various releases of Fedora but not also affect other distributions.

That would be a remarkable coincidence, since Fedora stays close to upstream and isn't likely to have broken those things in distro-specific patches.

GNOME 3 is not ready yet

Posted May 1, 2009 15:54 UTC (Fri) by kov (subscriber, #7423) [Link]

Finding songs to play is done by Banshee, for me. Why would I use a file manager for that? =)

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 22:30 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> Are there fallback options for those that cannot or do not want to use compositing?

Probably OpenBox. Which is my current fallback when I get tired of Metacity's McHappyMeal-ness.

----

As far as hardware goes.. At the current time; All ATI cards since the R200-days should be 'ok' for handling compositing desktops. Similar for Nvidia, as long as they are supported by the proprietary drivers.

You won't be able to do it with the Intel 8xx series chipsets which some got sold with the Pentium-M era laptops. The 915 and 910 Intel chipsets can barely do it comfortably. But with modern UXA/GEM/setup anything 945g and newer should have zero problems managing a compositing desktop. The performance hit from running something like 'compiz' is negligable.. and as the drivers support for acceleration improves (like getting rid of needing software rendering for any part of EXA or whatnot) then performance should only get better.

I am running a Dell Mini-9 with 1.6ghz Atom and 1GB of RAM and it uses the 945g-era video chipset. It can run OpenGL composition quite well.. Well relatively well.

Mind you this is Fedora 11 beta with latest-and-greatest-everything. It took a while for Fedora 11 folks to get the drivers beaten into a good enough shape that performance is decent enough. It seems like the Ubuntu 9.04 folks missed the boat a bit with that one, but I am not sure.

The only problems I have are when watching large flash video. If you use UXA and then force Adobe's Flash to use OpenGL* then on the Mini-9 you can play Hulu.com videos well if the video is not maximized.

*
~]# cat /etc/adobe/mms.cfg
WindowlessDisable=true # a little bit more stable
OverrideGPUValidation=true # a nice performance boost

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 5:02 UTC (Sat) by tetromino (subscriber, #33846) [Link]

> The performance hit from running something like 'compiz' is negligable..

In my experience, on a laptop with GM45 Intel graphics (less than a year old), running compiz results in a significant performance hit for OpenGL applications (Google Earth, in particular, becomes unusably slow) -- and besides, every combination of compiz+mesa versions that I've tried over the past 6 months causes random X lockups, unsuspend problems, and so forth.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 11:25 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

These are just bugs that needs to be filed and fixed. Working around them is not a long term solution.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted May 3, 2009 12:30 UTC (Sun) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]

which is what the KDE developers said when they released 4.0 - and the
result was an amount of shit which, if it were real, would cover the US.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 20:38 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

There is a bug with how Linux does it's CPU speed scaling. For some reason it won't scale the cpu up to make graphics run faster.

If you set the cpu speed at maximum or choose the 'performance' governer then it will make things quite a bit faster. For example in ManiaDrive I average around 50-70fps with my cpu at 800mhz and 150-190 when its at 2.0ghz.

However even with that your still going to see some performance drop. Like I said the only thing that I've found that works well so far is Fedora 11 beta... and even then it took quite a bit of time before they got it working well. As the new code paths mature I have no doubt that they will be able to exceed the capabilities of the old versions of the drivers.. especially when the drivers gain more capabilities.

----------------------

The trade off here is that with a composited desktop OpenGL applications prior to UXA/GEM/DRI2/etc was completely unusable...

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 22:05 UTC (Sat) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

Even Ubuntu's netbook launcher uses Clutter -- if netbooks can do it, so can your laptop/desktop!

On a more serious note, as long as the backend rendering libraries themselves are not inseparably tied to Clutter, I'm sure there will be an alternative desktop shell that you can use.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 24, 2009 22:52 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Ugh, Zeitgeist sounds horrid. Organizing files that way sounds awful to me.

(Then again, I've yet to find a file manager useful. I like X because it lets me run lots and lots of xterms...)

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 4:31 UTC (Sat) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

I agree. Gnome Shell looks like a nice clean interface and seems useful, but unless Zeitgeist provides some kind of compatibility interface where files can be seen the way they are, I don't see how I could ever use it.

I guess it comes down to when and how one was taught to organise files. In the olden days, we used to be drilled to organise our files properly, so finding them was never a big problem. Not sure what they teach kids these days...

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 7:31 UTC (Sat) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

Folder structures sucks major balls, simply because there is only one entry point/one view, and it's so damn rigid. (ok, you can create more views if you use links, but that isn't exactly something you'd want to maintain)

Anything that can remove the importance of the structures when finding data (i.e. by providing alternative views) is a step forward.

I just hope that Zeitgeist isn't going to be the only alternative organization. Advanced "by date" is definitely an important step, but there's so much more.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 13:53 UTC (Sat) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link]

I broadly agree. Filesystems should be databases, and it should be possible to create projections of the filesystem based on any metadata associated with files. Files should also be strongly typed. Ultimately, a "directory" is just a piece of meta data associated with a file.

However, I rather suspect that the Gnome Zeitgeist, by just adding "by date" projections is going to demonstrate that that's really not good enough.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 16:12 UTC (Sat) by seilo (guest, #55462) [Link]

We don't only add projections by date. That is why we provide tagging! So you can chose not to view by date but rather to view data related "by tags" to whatever you wish! You can also browse files that have a specific tag
or view files that have several tags in common!

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 18:39 UTC (Sat) by dirtyepic (subscriber, #30178) [Link]

I've never understood the appeal of tagging. How is going through all my files and adding the appropriate tags to each one any easier/faster/more convenient than just putting them in a folder in the first place? Sure you can have multiple tags per file, but every one of the very few times I've had to find files based on some kind of arbitrary metadata, it's something that I never thought to use as a tag (eg. i have photos tagged with location and date, but i need to find pictures of my brother).

i do see the value in social tagging where it's likely someone else has already done the dirty work, but for my own stuff? Never.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 18:52 UTC (Sat) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link]

Yeah, if people can't be arsed to put they files in a sensible folder structure then they won't bother to richly tag them. All such meta data should ideally come from the file content itself. E.g. id3 tags, exif data etc etc. The ability to have live projection with many, often pretty complex constraints (i.e. you need a full expression engine in this, not just some "show me files tagged with 'red'" crap) is actually pretty cool.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 22:07 UTC (Sat) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

Pretty cool, and we'll finally be where BeOS was ten years ago.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 18:47 UTC (Thu) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

And where OS X is today (with Spotlight and QuickSilver).

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted May 5, 2009 20:13 UTC (Tue) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

You can do that with Beagle/Strigi/Tracker coupled with deskbar-applet/gnome-do/katapult already.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Jun 3, 2009 16:29 UTC (Wed) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]

>>
How is going through all my files and adding the appropriate tags to each one any easier/faster/more convenient than just putting them in a folder in the first place?
<<
It's *exactly* the same work to put all your file in a folder or tagging the files: both are setting a metadata attribute on the files.

But hieararchical folders are more rigid and require an order even when there is no 'natural' order: ie /landscapes/NewYork isn't better than /NewYork/landscape..

So tags are more flexible.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 12:48 UTC (Mon) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link]

Files should also be strongly typed.

Isn't that roughly the opposite of UNIX file philosophy? Even Apple's OS hasn't had strongly typed files for years.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 19:33 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Completely the opposite. You give me strongly typed files and I ask you to
do forensics, open a file in a wildly different app (there sometimes are
good reasons), or even run *backups* or use things like indexers.

Weakly typed files *are* a good idea: build it on top of libmagic.so (and,
for portability rather than speed, calls to file(1) if libmagic.so isn't
around).

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 21:30 UTC (Mon) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link]

I was just surprised nobody else jumped on that, since it seemed so un-UNIX.

(And un-everything these days, for that matter. I remember the Bad Old Days, when I couldn't open a file because it was the "wrong type." And that was on cassette!)

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 21:47 UTC (Mon) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link]

Nah, you misunderstand me. I don't care about changes to opening or manipulating file contents, this is all about the metadata associated with the file.

File types should form a hierarchy, so, eg ogg is subtype of music is a subtype of media is a subtype of file. And then the attributes a file carries is defined by the filetype, with inheritance. So, eg all files have a size, and then all media files have a length, and all ogg files have channel count, for example. This tends to keep the interfaces simpler, because it means you don't have to present the user with 7843264372 different attributes to constrain, it's very likely they know the file type they're expecting and so you obviously only offer the attributes that are defined for those file types.

Myself and a few friends actually implemented all this a few years ago, basically building the UI and everything on top of Postgresql. It worked tremendously well and was fantastically powerful. However, the issue, as it will always be, is making a sane bridge between such a rich and powerful system back to a normal file/directory system such that the command line works. We never really implemented it, though did have some ideas. As an indication of how powerful it all was, we never bothered adding "name" or "directory" attributes, which would, logically have been attached to the root file type. The meta data was so rich that you really didn't need to name files at all. I guess the obvious take away here is the age old adage of "a system is only as good as the data that's in it". In this case, it was excellent, but it could quickly deteriorate.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 22:17 UTC (Mon) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link]

Ah, I see. So the actual file itself isn't strongly typed, per se, in the traditional notion of a "strongly typed file system." Rather, you're saying that any organizational scheme you use should have a strong notion of what the file's contents are so that it can use that metadata to organize things. The command line still sees bags of bytes with a simple pathname, and "dd" and "cat" and "cp" and "tar" all do what I expect.

As for "making the command line work," wouldn't this just be an alternate implementation of "glob"? Traditional glob is just a very primitive sort of database query: The only keys you can query against are components of the pathname. Your metadata organizational system just gives you a different thing to query against to get your set of pathnames to go act upon.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 22:28 UTC (Mon) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link]

The way we'd thought about making the command line work was along the lines of:

Rather than "being in a directory", you're in a current view of the system which has constraints (i.e. you've specified some requirements on some attributes and only files that match those attributes are available).

Then ls works as normal, and cd (or some such tool) provides a means to alter the constraints. Oh yes, the other awesome feature we had was the ability to save views. So eg, you'd have a view which would specify all media files added within the last two weeks, and then you'd save that view, and could switch very quickly to it. This meant that it was worthwhile putting a couple of minutes into setting up (we have GUI tools) a good powerful view of the system (this is why I said in an earlier comment you really want a full expression engine).

Once you'd got the command line working that well, it would be easy enough to try and do some fuse type binding, but it would be tricky. I looked into it but never wrote any code in that direction.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted May 5, 2009 20:16 UTC (Tue) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

Was this ever released? This sounds tremendously useful.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 16:05 UTC (Sat) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Anything that can remove the importance of the structures when finding data (i.e. by providing alternative views) is a step forward.

find and locate generally do it for me. I've never yet run into a situation I couldn't solve with one or the other.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 15:02 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I have frequently run into situations I couldn't handle with find and locate (e.g. 'show me all the unstripped ELF executables and shared objects under this directory which I can write to and which are really unstripped, i.e. do not have a .gnu.debuglink' but actually contain the debugging information themselves. You can't do *that* with find/locate.

But find, locate, and 'other stuff with pipelines' should be able to handle everything. Of course 'other stuff' can include file(1)...

... maybe what we need is some sort of 'hierarchical file(1)', perhaps a way to ask boolean is-a questions of its MIME type database, and a much bigger MIME type database.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 18:18 UTC (Sat) by dirtyepic (subscriber, #30178) [Link]

Data needs to be structured to be organizable. What you're suggesting is dumping everything in one big pile and saying, "Hey look, the newer stuff is on top!".

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted May 1, 2009 15:59 UTC (Fri) by kov (subscriber, #7423) [Link]

No, it's more along the lines of ditching hierarchy for tagging and locality. I don't like the current
implementation, and I really want to see that as part of Nautilus, but the idea rocks IMO. I believe
this is one of the things that make people like GMail so much. This is how people think about
things.

Also, notice that find and locate, and tracker, will continue being nice ways of finding files, but
not for my mom =P.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 7:49 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

"Compatibility interface" would be nautilus. It isn't going away.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 26, 2009 8:51 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

Good to know. Thanks.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 10:12 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The problem may not be 'kids'. I remember when my dad retired I had a look
at his work machine.

Everything he'd done for the previous ten years or so was in *one*
enormous directory. He'd noticed things were getting 'rather slow'...

This is how a lot of non-computer-people seem to organise things. Just
save it on the desktop until we run out of room... though the user
interface calls them 'folders' (yuck), they don't actually act enough like
real file folders for people to realise how they can be used without
tuition.

(Of course 'non-computer-people' are literally a dying breed these days.
Pretty much everyone under the age of 30 probably understands how
hierarchical directories are used, at least to some extent.)

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 11:17 UTC (Mon) by fatrat (subscriber, #1518) [Link]

"Pretty much everyone under the age of 30 probably understands how
hierarchical directories are used, at least to some extent."

Not the ones I see, or at least not beyond the basics. Everything on the desktop is the most common, with probably some folders called "old" or similar to chuck stuff in when that gets full

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 12:51 UTC (Mon) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link]

I'm far from computer illiterate, but I find myself guilty of this level of organizational laziness, at least with my work computer. I have a folder named "CRAP" on my desktop, and every so often I haul another batch of stuff there.

My desktop acts like a spatial LRU for files.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 17:16 UTC (Mon) by amarjan (guest, #25108) [Link]

Guilty? Why guilty?

The simple fact is that a strict hierarchy is a really lousy way to organize most things, and that's all that a filesystem gives you. (Except in Unix we have links, so we can have cycles in our trees, yay.)

David Weinberger said it far better than I ever could in a lecture some years ago. Video and audio are here:

http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/003386.html

I refuse to be guilted about my "poor" file organization habits when the system I have available for organizing my files is half-assed and inadequate. Any given file may belong in an arbitrary number of buckets and it's the computer's job to keep track of that, not mine. After all, why do we have DBMS-managed indexes instead of doing it all by hand?

Personally I think a combination of arbitrary metadata and fulltext/metadata search would be the bee's knees, but I don't know of anything that does that yet -- most systems tend to do one or the other. Nepomuk is supposed to do both, if/when it gets into a usable state.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 25, 2009 14:59 UTC (Sat) by MathFox (guest, #6104) [Link]

Both concepts have some good ideas, especially Zeitgeist. I think Zeitgeist could be very useful as alternative presentation mode in a file browser. GNOME Shell misses out on the crucial point in User Interfaces: making working with the computer easier for the user.
I have set up my system for "side-by-side" viewing and editing of documents. I use workspaces (virtual desktops) to keep the windows that I use for a specific project together. What I would like is to tune a workspace, so that the file browser shows the project files as default, the webbrowser comes up with a project-specific bookmark bar and the applications that are needed for the project have their icons. It should be possible to save (and freeze) the workspace state independently from the other workspaces on the system.
Bonus points when you can make the e-mail client "workspace sensitive" and give it a button that loads the relevant workspace for the email.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 26, 2009 0:36 UTC (Sun) by dractyl (guest, #26334) [Link]

I'm decidedly more on the apprehension side of the fence.

I use gnome these days, mostly because of the KDE debacle which, despite the new versions, still has a way to go. I'm not keen on a repeat.

Really, they have spent years polishing gnome into a usable desktop. Everyone is just settling down with it and getting happy. But because the gnome developers are bored, they are going to embark on a half-baked attempt to make the next big thing in desktop technology, and the users/distros will end up paying for it.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't give these new ideas a go, but what makes me nervous is that it's Gnome 3.0, not Gnome: Experimental Horrors Edition. 3.0 gives me the sense that this will become the new One True Way of the Desktop, almost by default, good idea or no.

It also works against their stated goals to some degree. Gnome, in addition to being a political response to KDE, was designed to make things friendly and easy to use for normal, non-technical users. For the most part, they have succeeded. I think it does that constituency a disservice to completely re-conceive the desktop every so often, particularly if it's not being done in response to actual user needs.

The larger computing community are past the point of sudden radical shifts in thinking. Otherwise we'd all be using MALTRON or DVORAK keyboards. Experimental and radical ideas are great in projects not aimed toward the mainstream, but any changes to the default, non-technical person's environment needs to evolve slowly over time so that our less technically inclined brethren can keep up and keep working.

Change at *their* pace.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 26, 2009 11:24 UTC (Sun) by fb (subscriber, #53265) [Link]

I second that. I left Gnome when they went 2.0, making their desktop unusable for so many of its users. Used KDE until, oh well, until they decided that they didn't care about their users anymore.

If anything, I trust (hope?) there were enough Gnome devs looking at what happened with KDE4, and that they won't repeat the same mistakes.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 27, 2009 8:50 UTC (Mon) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

Agreed - it's OK to create some new approaches / tools and hope that people use these, but it's not advisable to radically change the default model for the desktop.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 15:14 UTC (Thu) by rlk (guest, #47505) [Link]

GNOME Shell looks like a serious step backwards. I hate to say "as usual", but while GNOME 1.x was quite usable, it's gone downhill from there.

The notion of one active application at a time that's on top is completely wrong, at least for me. Call it what you will, but I've always preferred the freewheeling focus strictly follows mouse, no autoraise, no click to raise style. I often have a big jumble of windows on my screen, and if I get too annoyed I shuffle some of them off to other virtual desktops, but it's how I like to work. I have a big screen (WUXGA), and I'd prefer to move in the direction of a bigger screen (QXGA or whatnot).

I remember all too well using Pagemaker on Windows 3.11. Copying anything between documents was really unpleasant. It would be that much worse if only one window at a time were maximized. Sometimes it's really important to have multiple things at once visible -- I'm working on a Python script and need to see on the fly how changes to the script affect behavior.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 17:32 UTC (Thu) by Frej (subscriber, #4165) [Link]

>The notion of one active application at a time that's on top...

Gnome-shell shell doesn't do that.

Shell and Zeitgeist: the future of GNOME?

Posted Apr 30, 2009 19:51 UTC (Thu) by pspinler (subscriber, #2922) [Link]

How would Zeitgeist interact with other views into one's files?

The thing is, I don't want to be locked into a single method for getting reasonable access to my data, especially if that single method is GUI only. Worse yet, having some gui tools understanding Zeitgeist's file repository, and some not, and command line being completely separate.

For instance, a common workflow for me is to scp/sftp a bunch of system information from a server to my desktop using command line tools, attach that information to a vendor support ticket using a web browser (gui), download a patch from said vendor, again using a browser, and scp/sftp those patches back to a host to apply.

Another common workflow is to edit some files in my editor of choice, and either receive or attach them to email (gui) to interact with remote colleagues.

If the command line tools don't see the same view into the file repository as the gui tools - then I can't easily do this.

With the ancient directory/file paradime, all the tools understand the same organizational method, so it's easy to switch back and forth between different tools, all still working with the same file repository view.

-- Pat

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