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it's about the crashes!!!it's about the crashes!!!Posted Mar 18, 2009 17:24 UTC (Wed) by pflugstad (subscriber, #224)In reply to: Know your place by xoddam Parent article: Better than POSIX?
that it not lose data as a matter of courseOkay, I had to post on this one. The thing that EVERYONE seems to be forgetting is that these problems only occur when you have crashes - I.e. bad hardware or buggy drivers. This is not a case of lose data as a matter of course, it's a case of the whole freakin system crashing badly. This is a situation which happens VERY rarely. Honestly, has anyone here, NOT running binary closed source drivers, experienced a crash in a distro provided kernel in what, the last 12 months or longer? Heck, even a bleeding edge (but not -RC) kernel. Didn't think so. Now, please refrain from hyperbolic statements like that. I realize the Ted pointed this out in his initial emails and while it's still not good for the system level behavior to change like this, this is a case of ultra bleeding edge kernel, ALPHA distro release, etc. These are not common users in any sense of the word "common".
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it's about the crashes!!! Posted Mar 18, 2009 20:02 UTC (Wed) by zeekec (subscriber, #2414) [Link]
Just let me say that I agree with Teds opinion that the applications are in error, not ext4
> Honestly, has anyone here, NOT running binary closed source drivers, experienced a crash in a distro provided kernel in what, the last 12 months or longer? Heck, even a bleeding edge (but not -RC) kernel.
Actually, yes I have. I run Gentoo unstable at home, and I am currently having issues with the 2.6.28 kernel and Xorg's intel drivers. All open source. So it does happen. (But I'm running Gentoo unstable and expect it!)
it's about the crashes!!! Posted Mar 18, 2009 22:45 UTC (Wed) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]
Your point is entirely correct, as far as it goes, and it validates my position.
The purpose of a journaling filesystem is *only* to ease and speed the task of recovery after an unclean shutdown. I can't emphasise this point strongly enough.
it's about the crashes!!! Posted Mar 19, 2009 0:35 UTC (Thu) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link]
<em>The purpose of a journaling filesystem is *only* to ease and speed the
task of recovery after an unclean shutdown.</em>
That is not quite correct. The primary purpose of journaling in typical
The secondary purpose of journaling is to loosen ordering restrictions on
Finally, journaling filesystems are not metaphysically prohibited from
it's about the crashes!!! Posted Mar 19, 2009 5:56 UTC (Thu) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]
Metaphysics aside, surely these primary and secondary purposes you describe themselves have the ultimate goal of saving end users the trouble of cleaning up a mess after an unclean shutdown?
it's about the crashes!!! Posted Mar 20, 2009 21:17 UTC (Fri) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link]
Yes. The primary goal of journaling is to make the filesystem more robust
so that manual intervention after a system crash is minimized.
it's about the crashes!!! Posted Mar 19, 2009 23:25 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]
If you take your own argument seriously, you don't need any journaled file system -- after all, the only reason to use journaling is to get better behaviour after a crash.
That said, yes, I had many kernel crashes at the start of this year, using SUSE and no proprietary modules. It took a long time to identify the piece of hardware that caused it. (It was the video card.) I have another system where usage of ionice causes hard lockups of the whole system, reproducable. E.g., running updatedb with ionice. I have never identified the culprit here and finally put it in the closet; my time was worth more than the price of a new system.
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