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Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogancePerfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogancePosted May 15, 2003 7:19 UTC (Thu) by djst (guest, #11214)In reply to: Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance by roskegg Parent article: Christopher Blizzard of mozilla.org Speaks on the Firebird Naming Conflict (MozillaZine)
There was NO misunderstanding; I and the Firebird team were just allowing you to save face in the hopes that you would start to play ball. But then Christopher Blizzards posts SHIT like the interview linked in this article, it becomes obvious that there is no desire of many on the Mozilla team to play ball. You couldn't be more wrong. The plan ever since the name needed to change has always been to use Mozilla Browser in the end, and I can prove it by quoting an email from Asa Dotzler dated 2003-03-28, explaining the new names before they went public: "Phoenix -> Firebird, and Minotaur -> Thunderbird. But the real news (that I hinted about below) which makes the names unimportant is that we're working on having them simply be called "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail". The plan (and please, please, don't pass this on to anyone) is to make Phoenix and Minotaur the official builds from mozilla.org and make the old suite the secondary project (like phoenix is now). We'll need "project names" or "code names" to keep the bugs separate in Bugzilla, etc. so I suspect that we'll call them Firebird and Thunderbird where ever that makes sense but to most of the world, I suspect that they'll just think of Firebird as "the broser from Mozilla". It's all still in flux and may change dramatically (may not happen at all) but that's what we're working on making happen." So you're the one who is posting "SHIT", as you would express it.
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Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 7:40 UTC (Thu) by msutherland (guest, #11201) [Link] > You couldn't be more wrong. The plan ever since the name needed to change has always been to use Mozilla Browser in the endMr. David Tenser... you are full of it, sir. That is a pure line of complete and utter bullshit and you know it. I'm ashamed, but not surprised, with your behavior. I know the Firebird Help site is an important pet project for you to play with but lets get with the program of honesty here.
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 9:00 UTC (Thu) by djst (guest, #11214) [Link] I'm lost of words. How can you simply assume that I'm not telling the truth when I'm trying to do exactly that? Why would I lie about this? I'm posting proof that Jonathan Walther is wrong when he makes claims about a change of plans at mozilla.org and now you're accusing me of being a liar?As soon as I get home again (I'm currently at the university), I'll upload the full email source and post a link here. Your attitude scares me. Where is the trust in people nowadays? If anything, you should be ashamed.
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 9:41 UTC (Thu) by msutherland (guest, #11201) [Link] > I'm lost of words.You should be. In response to this question from Thelem at Mozillazine on April 15th, 2003: Subject: Product Names "As these are just product names, they will presumably be fully refered to as 'Mozilla Firebird' and 'Mozilla Thunderbird', just as you would 'Microsoft Internet Explorer'?" http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3075&message=44&state=reply
"Yes. We have the Mozilla Firebird browser and the Mozilla Thunderbird email client. --Asa" http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3075&message=54#54
The point is that when the new name for Phoenix was announced, Firebird, it had not then been the consensus for 'Mozilla Browser' as the real name... like those clowns at Mozilla.org are saying. They just came out later and said 'Yeah, that's what we meant all along... Firebird is just the project name for bugzilla'. That, of course, is pure bullshit... and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Mozilla community who would swallow it.
Me ashamed? You should be ashamed for thinking I would fall for such a flawed 'save face' effort.
http://texturizer.net/firebird/ http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/ Is there a little 'political correctness' going on there?
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 11:31 UTC (Thu) by djst (guest, #11214) [Link] The point is that when the new name for Phoenix was announced, Firebird, it had not then been the consensus for 'Mozilla Browser' as the real name... like those clowns at Mozilla.org are saying. I'm not saying that the announcement by Mozilla.org was made the best possible way (in fact I think they should have been more clear about the naming policy from the very beginning), I'm just saying that the plan is and has always been to call the browser Mozilla Browser. Period. Yet you keep accusing me for being a liar. You should be ashamed for thinking I would fall for such a flawed 'save face' effort. What I'm telling you is the truth and I will prove it. BTW, why do you refer to the browser as Mozilla Firebird and the mail as just Thunderbird? My sites are in no way official, but of course I'll rename the Thunderbird site too. It just hasn't been the #1 priority for me lately. They will both be renamed again when Mozilla (Application Suite) 1.4 is released.
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 12:17 UTC (Thu) by msutherland (guest, #11201) [Link] > I'm not saying that the announcement by Mozilla.org was made the best possible way (in fact I think they should have been more clear about the naming policy from the very beginning), I'm just saying that the plan is and has always been to call the browser Mozilla Browser. Period.You are missing the mark entirely. I don't care that the name Mozilla Browser was "all still in flux and may change dramatically (may not happen at all)". The POINT is that if Mozilla Browser was really the product name when the announcement was made on April 14th, 2003... like the lousy liars at Mozilla.org claim... then the headline for such a long-time anticipated announcement would not be: "After months of discussion and further months of legal investigation, we're finally comfortable moving forward with new names. The new name for the Phoenix browser is 'Firebird'. The documentation and product strings will be updated soon. In addition to securing Firebird, we've also got the OK from those contributing legal resources to use the name 'Thunderbird' for a mail client. Hopefully this will be the end of naming legal issues for a while." Do you understand that? Or are you so completely biased that you can't see the forest through the trees? Use your head for crying out loud. I would believe you if the new name announcement on April 14th said something along the lines of this: "The new name for the Phoenix browser is Mozilla Browser, code named 'Firebird'. The new name for the mail client is Mozilla Mail, code named 'Thunderbird'." or... "The new name for the Phoenix browser is Mozilla Browser, with the project name in bugzilla being 'Firebird'. The new name for the mail client is Mozilla Mail, with the project name in Bugzilla being 'Thunderbird'."
So when Mozilla.org tries to desperately save face and say that is what they meant... sorry boys, but that canoe is going down the river without a paddle. > Yet you keep accusing me for being a liar. I didn't say you were a liar. I said you were full of it and that the line your were trying to sell me was bullshit. As far as liars go... the clowns at Mozilla.org are the liars.
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 14:06 UTC (Thu) by djst (guest, #11214) [Link] I wrote: The plan ever since the name needed to change has always been to use Mozilla Browser in the endYou replied: Mr. David Tenser... you are full of it, sir. That is a pure line of complete and utter bullshit and you know it. How can I miss that mark you're trying to make? You're trying to suggest that I'm not telling the truth, which I am. The plan _has_ been to call it Mozilla Browser, and I already _did_ agree with you that the announcement wasn't the best. Use _your_ head instead of being impolite to people you don't know.
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 15:12 UTC (Thu) by msutherland (guest, #11201) [Link] > You're trying to suggest that I'm not telling the truth, which I am.No. No. No. When I said... 'Mr. David Tenser... you are full of it, sir. That is a pure line of complete and utter bullshit and you know it.'... I meant that what your you were trying to get at with that email was bullshit. I did not mean that I did not believe you got the email... I meant the point your were trying to make with it was bullshit. And it is... bullshit.
"The plan ever since the name needed to change has always been to use Mozilla Browser in the end" I would call that a lie. Unless, of course, you are merely echoing what someone else told you... in that case, then they'd be lying. > The plan _has_ been to call it Mozilla Browser, and I already _did_ agree with you that the announcement wasn't the best. You're missing the mark again. You're trying to put it off as though the announcement itself was at fault... a giant typographical error, so to speak. It wasn't. The announcement accurately reflected the state of reality regarding the naming of Phoenix. The gross lies come in when Mozilla.org later claims that when the Firebird name was announced on April 14th.... it was meant as the project name only, with Mozilla Browser being the real name. That is pure bullshit. A despicable lie ponied up in an effort to save their sorry faces.
Perfect example of Mozilla dishonesty and arrogance Posted May 15, 2003 9:19 UTC (Thu) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link] Mr. David Tenser... you are full of it, sir. That is a pure line of complete and utter bullshit and you know it. I'd like to know your basis for that assertion. David has supported his by quoting a mail pre-dating the conflict which shows where we wanted to move to (and are still moving to.) The position then remains the position today - "Mozilla Browser" is where we want to be. Gerv
Mozilla.org == Sorry Bunch of Lying Bastards! Posted May 18, 2003 12:19 UTC (Sun) by msutherland (guest, #11201) [Link] Trademark registration is not required for trademark validity. Use in trade is sufficient. Trademark registration, by itself, doesn't establish the validity of a mark, but it does move the question into Federal courts.Firebird is in the process of registering the mark "Firebird". The Mozilla group will have opportunity to explain to the US Patent Office their various quaint and creative reasons what Firebird isn't a valid trademark for a database but is for a browser. Then the venue will shift to Federal court. The issues aren't subtle or difficult to master. Firebird has been using the trademark uncontested for three years. They're really nothing left to be said but determine damages. To further add to my complete disprespect of the Mozilla community.... 1. Mozillazine taking the Firebird name and appending a (TM) to it in their forums. In their flawed arrogance, they thought they were being cute. I look at as them acting like a bunch of backward ass nitwit twirps. Lucky for them they recently became endowed with the brains to remove it. 2. In a failed effort to save their sorry faces, they later claim that when they announced their name change from Phoenix to Firebird that they had meant at that time, and all along, that the Firebird was just the 'project' name... and that the 'product' name was Mozilla Browser. That, of course, is load of vile bullshit for several reasons..... Here's the announcement: "Asa Dotzler writes: After months of discussion and further months of legal investigation, we're finally comfortable moving forward with new names. The new name for the Phoenix browser is 'Firebird'. The documentation and product strings will be updated soon. In addition to securing Firebird, we've also got the OK from those contributing legal resources to use the name 'Thunderbird' for a mail client. Hopefully this will be the end of naming legal issues for a while." http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3075 A. There is absolutely no mention, not even a remote hint, that the name Firbird is simply a project name. In fact, the supposed 'product' name, Mozilla Browser, as you can see, is not even cited. B. If Firebird was meant as a 'project' name... then there is no requirement to 'run it through legal' C. Asa Dotzler was even specifically asked what the *product* name would be by a community member: "SUBJECT: Product Names http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3075&message=44&state=reply Asa's reply.... "SUBJECT: Re: Product Names --Asa" http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3075&message=54&state=reply
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