Where are the Linux laptops? [LWN.net]

[This article was contributed by Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier]

Finding a laptop that is Linux-compatible can be a daunting task. Buying a laptop with Linux pre-loaded is pretty much impossible if you want to buy from major vendors like Dell, HP, IBM or Toshiba. HP recently announced a low-end Linux laptop for sale in Thailand. This sounded like exciting news at first, but it turns out that the HP laptop is being underwritten by the Thai government and won't be offered in the United States.

Dell and IBM have offered Linux on some of their laptops in the past, but both companies have stopped doing so. Lindows.com -- not a major company, but important in the sense that they have managed to put machines with Linux pre-installed into some traditional retail channels -- announced a budget Linux-based portable computer this year, but it's not widely available (it's only available through one of Lindows.com's resellers) and it's seriously underpowered.

So what is a Linux user to do? The only real options for Linux users are to buy a notebook or laptop computer that comes with Windows pre-installed, or to go to a smaller vendor that offers Linux on a portable. A few of the vendors that sell Linux pre-installed on laptops or notebooks are Emperor Linux, Qli Linux Computers and ASL.

There are a number of reasons why you probably won't see Linux being offered by any of the big retailers anytime soon. For one thing, a vendor like Dell or IBM has a hard time offering what Linux users really want -- the most recent distribution on cutting-edge hardware. Lincoln Durey, president and founder of Emperor Linux, said that when major manufacturers have tried to offer Linux laptops they've tended to be at least one revision behind a distribution -- and usually only offer a choice of one or two distributions. And, when they have offered Linux they didn't offer a dual-boot system with Windows as well, something Durey says many of his customers are looking for.

Durey also noted that all or almost all major components of a laptop will change every four to six months, which causes major difficulty for anyone trying to test compatibility with Linux as well as Windows on those machines. Ray Sanders, founder of Qli Linux, says that they're "almost guaranteed" that sound, video, USB and integrated Ethernet will work but "we never expect modems to work under Linux." Durey added that "PCMCIA is a perennial nightmare." Of course, that's a chicken and the egg problem. If the Dell, Toshiba and other big vendors started demanding Linux-compatible parts, it wouldn't take long before their upstream vendors responded.

It's not as if there isn't demand for Linux on laptops, though it's not in the same kind of mass quantities that vendors like Dell are used to. Durey says that most of the demand they see is from university and government researchers or others who are buying a Linux laptop because that's also what they use at work. In other words, demand is increasing, but there still isn't a great demand from home users clamoring for a Linux notebook, at least not relatively speaking. Sanders says that Qli's sales of Linux laptops is "brisk," at least by their standards. "In my mind, moving a couple hundred notebooks a month is fantastic, whereas IBM and Dell need to move thousands of units to make it worthwhile." Durey said that Emperor's sales have been growing by 12 to 15 percent a year, after the initial boom in 1999 when the company hit the market.

If Linux is going to gain mainstream acceptance, it's going to have to be available on laptops through normal retail channels. More and more people are choosing to buy a laptop for home use instead of a desktop PC, so it's vitally important that Linux be there if it's to catch on in the desktop market. Wrestling Linux onto a laptop designed only to run Windows can be a daunting task, and it certainly isn't something that Linux newbies want to attempt. Until the demand reaches a higher level, however, alternatives to installing it yourself will remain scarce.

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Where are the Linux laptops?

Posted May 15, 2003 7:49 UTC (Thu) by wolfrider (guest, #3105) [Link]

--True, but then there is the fact that depending on the laptop, the sound may not work (as well as other things.) But afa HW detection goes, knoppix is hard to beat and AFAIK second to none...

Where are the Linux laptops?

Posted May 15, 2003 9:08 UTC (Thu) by tjasper (subscriber, #4310) [Link]

I have installed Mandrake 9.1 on my Dell Inspiron 2500 with no problems. It dual boots with win_xp and win_98. I had to install the win_98 first and as the bootable (FAT32) partition, as LILO would trash the NTFS boot if the xp partition was the boot partition.

Sound, video, ethernet and modem all work out-of-the-box and I'm very impressed with the improvements in the installer on 9.1. I have been a fan of Mandrake since 7.0 and they keep getting better each release.

Linux on laptops is possible with Mandrake 9.1

Trevor

Where are the Linux laptops?

Posted May 22, 2003 9:47 UTC (Thu) by oever (subscriber, #987) [Link]

SuSE certifies laptops. So, you're pretty sure the laptop works with SuSE. Mandrake also has a database with certified hardware, but there are exactly 0 certified laptops. :-(

It doesnt quite work that way...

Posted May 15, 2003 12:25 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

>If the Dell, Toshiba and other big vendors started demanding
> Linux-compatible parts, it wouldn't take long before their upstream
> vendors responded.

From when I dealt with various vendors.. it would take quite a while for it to occur. Laptops are not like desktops in that they have much different concerns. First is weight, second is power consumption, and the third is features. Each one of those has to be designed to the half-penny as everything has to be imbedded and usually designed close to a year in advance on parts that dont exist yet. The margins on a laptop are slim to none with companies like Dell making money off of the thing that if your CFO likes his laptop he will ok that bigger order of Dell workstations for the company. When they do make money it is if they sell large orders of the same laptop.
If they dont see mass orders of something they cut the production line quickly in order to cut losses.

Where are the Linux laptops?

Posted Feb 14, 2004 1:26 UTC (Sat) by NerfRadar (guest, #19428) [Link]

I wouldn't recommend QLI Linux, and neither would the Better Business Bureau.

In September, 2003, the power regulator on my QLI Emperor Laptop went belly-up. I emailed QLI and they recommended that I send it to them for a repair estimate. On September 20th I did. I haven't seen the laptop since. It's now February, 2004.

At the end of September I wrote in to ask if they'd received the laptop, and they replied "your system is being evaluated, and we should have a repair estimate in the next 5-7 days." Three weeks later I wrote to ask about the estimate and was told "give us a day or two and with all luck we will have your estimate, and possibly even the parts needed."

Ten days after that (now we're at the end of October), they respond to my increasingly worried email: "The best info we've been able to gather on that unit so far is 'No Problem Found'... We will keep you posted as soon as we hear word."

This is starting to look bad. Over a month after receiving my laptop, they've gone from saying they're on the verge of having the parts needed to repair it to saying that they haven't found any problem. I call QLI and talk to a representative there who tells me that the motherboard will have to be replaced because the power regulator is part of the motherboard and can't be replaced separately. I ask them to send me a repair estimate for the motherboard replacement.

On November 11th, they finally send me an estimate: "The repair estimate is $475.00 to completely fix the system, as there is a motherboard/power connector problem." I decide to go ahead with the repairs and I PayPal the $475 to QLI the same day. I ask QLI: "Do you have any estimate for when the repairs will be complete?"

The response: "We ask, and get back to you later today or tomorrow. Our rough guess would be about a week."

They did not get back to me "later today or tomorrow" so on November 28th I asked again: "Do you have an estimate as to when the repair work will be done and I'll have my laptop back?"

On December 2nd they replied "Your system is at the manufacturers facility in China/Hong Kong. We have been charged for the replacement part, however that is their standard policy for any out of warranty service. We can drop a note to them and see how things are progressing.... As we are updated, we will pass information along to you."

I thanked them for the update, and waited until January before emailing again to ask if there was any change in status. My January 5th letter wasn't answered. Ditto January 16th, January 20th and January 23rd. I called the QLI toll-free number - it was down (and was still down a month later when I called again).

So I sleuthed around and found the owner's cell and home phone numbers and left messages for him there. That finally got a response: "We had to put in another call to the manufacturer. The word we have is the power board is not the cause of the problem, and they are now claiming it is the motherboard. We are waiting for a price estimate, and there is currently an amount on deposit, as you were charged a deposit fee from our records. The manufacturer was shut down for the chinese new year, we've just been getting caught up from the holiday rush, please excuse the delay."

Naturally, I was flabbergasted, and wrote back explaining that the $475 was not a deposit, that the motherboard had always been the problem, and that they'd had my laptop more than long enough to fix it and return it to me. It's mid-February. My laptop has been missing for almost five months now. I've put in a complaint to the Better Business Bureau (and that's when I found out I wasn't the first one).

How about asking Oracle?

Posted May 15, 2003 16:34 UTC (Thu) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

Linux is now Oracle's suggested platform (Red Hat Advanced Server, in particular). Oracle uses it for the databases they host for other companies, and suggests it to customers who are intending to get a new database server (we had some Oracle sales people visit our company recently). They've gotten Dell to produce server machines certified for Red Hat and Oracle, so that you can just go out and buy Oracle's preferred hardware and software platform. This probably means that, if you're an Oracle user (or your company is, and many big companies are) and you do database development (or demo a product on the road) and want a Linux laptop, you should ask Oracle to get Dell to build a suitable one. You probably can't get exactly the distribution you want, but you should be able to get one where all the hardware is supported.

One of the Oracle sales guys we talked to said that he'd personally demoed the latest Oracle on a Linux laptop to a potential customer. It was running queries on the site's full data set which (on the site's server at the time, a different commercial database) took hours in realtime. Oracle really likes Linux, Oracle sales really likes laptops, and Dell cares a lot what Oracle thinks. So Dell knows what they're doing building laptops for Linux, even if they don't admit it to the general public.

Where are the Linux laptops?

Posted May 15, 2003 17:08 UTC (Thu) by mongre26 (guest, #4224) [Link]

You know, as much as I am a Linux advocate if you are looking for Unix on a laptop I recommend the Mac OS X laptops like the 12in G4 Powerbook. They even cost well below $2000.

The powerbooks are Unix, you can get to the terminal no problem, and has excellent integration of peripherals like wireless including auto scanning of all the G and B networks in range.

They are sturdy aluminum cases with a single hinge, excellent displays and decent if not stellar battery life. They also run relatively cool and seldom have to turn on their internal fans, although this is as much to do with them being less than 1Ghz.

Of course if you are looking for a desktop replacement the 17in with its plethora of peripherals and gorgeous display is an option.

Bottom line it is a good product, and is not windows. Of course the unix is a little old school for me without the modernization that you find in Linux, and you have to add your own multi-button mouse if you want it, but it makes a nice console and runs X. :)

BTW I am writing this on an x86 linux box, albiet with a 23in Mac HD display, which I might add works very well at 1920x1200. I find it is best to use what works. :)

Dual booting on Apple Titanium is great!

Posted May 15, 2003 21:55 UTC (Thu) by carlos (guest, #3066) [Link]

I strongly recommend an Apple Titanium running Yellow Dog Linux and Mac OS X.

This way you have a dream machine, running two Unix systems, one is our loved Linux, in particular Yellow Dog Linux is a distribution only for PPC hardware, they really know about this hardware. The other is Mac OS X, which is based on FreeBSD, with a BSD license, and then the proprietary Apple stuff on top. If you really need PhotoShop or M$ Office, they exist for Mac OS X, so you really have the best ot the two worlds. I am running XFree86, Gtk, etc on Mac OS X, with BlackBox, etc. And Linux runs very well on Macs: Enlightenment on Linux on Apple Titanium, that is really a dream machine (sound, themes, everything works great)!

My only problem, how to pass the image to an external projector on Linux? very hard indeed, I believe this is now the major problem with Linux on notebooks, we really need a standard way of dealing with this!

Linux-compatible parts

Posted May 16, 2003 14:47 UTC (Fri) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

If the Dell, Toshiba and other big vendors started demanding Linux-compatible parts, it wouldn't take long before their upstream vendors responded.

Yes, this would be a nice intermediate step between buying a laptop with Linux preloaded and buying a laptop not even knowing for sure what's going to work and what's not when you get it home.

Taking a "test drive" with a Linux on a CD with a live file system is currently the best alternative, but this is hard to do, since a lot of sales people will think that you're trying to upload a virus onto one of their systems if they see you doing this. It doesn't really pay to ask permission, since the answer will usually be "no", or "let me ask my manager" following by "no" a few minutes later. If you live in a big city, the trick is to pick out 4 or 5 stores and move around a lot. :-)

And, when they have offered Linux they didn't offer a dual-boot system with Windows as well, something Durey says many of his customers are looking for.

This is probably due to their contractual agreements with MSFT. I don't remember if this was changed as a result of the anti-trust trial or not. It should have been.

Linux-compatible parts

Posted May 17, 2003 11:34 UTC (Sat) by tres (guest, #352) [Link]

And, when they have offered Linux they didn't offer a dual-boot system with Windows as well, something Durey says many of his customers are looking for.

This is probably due to their contractual agreements with MSFT. I don't remember if this was changed as a result of the anti-trust trial or not. It should have been.

This is fixed on paper as a result of the anti-trust settlement but you can bet your bottom dollar that Bill & Steve have made it very clear to the OEMs that depend on Microsoft for survival that pissing on their campfire is a no-no. None of these OEMs advertise deals with Linux and the ones that are available are usually difficult to find on thier websites. The possible exception to this might be IBM's Linux campaign but that is more for the bigger systems not the desktop/laptop market.

Linux-compatible parts

Posted May 18, 2003 1:59 UTC (Sun) by zonker (subscriber, #7867) [Link]

This is irresponsible advice -- don't "move around a lot" and try to boot Linux from CD without talking to the sales folks. If they won't let you boot a Knoppix or other CD, then don't buy from that store. If you get caught booting Knoppix or whatnot without permission, you're likely to get yourself bounced out the door or worse.

I asked sales folks at Best Buy, Microcenter and CompUSA in Denver if I could boot Knoppix to test a laptop before I bought it when I was shopping for a laptop earlier this year -- not one person said "no" after I explained what Knoppix is and what it does.

Laptop Sucess Story

Posted May 21, 2003 19:13 UTC (Wed) by crouchet (guest, #1084) [Link]

I set up my Dell Laptop to dual boot RH Linux/Windoze 2K over 2 years ago and it works great, except for 2 things.

I have an NVIDIA display and the included drivers simply do not work. I had to go to NVIDIA's site and get the .src.rpm, do a rebuild on it and then install that version. That process takes me maybe 15 minutes and I repeat it whenever I upgrade the kernel or X.

Second, the winmodem (3com) they include does not work. Big deal. I just plug in a spare PCMCIA modem which works fine.

My box is a Dell C810. I am currently running RH 7.3 though my next upgrade (real soon now) will be to Mandrake 9.1. I tried RH 8.X & 9.X on other machines and I don't really like a lot of the changes. Oddly enough, Mandrake Linux 9.1 seems a lot more like what I am use to with RH 7.3 than does RH's 9.0. Go figure.

Anyway, I have used this Laptop for development and general use for 2+ years now, both in Linux and W2K (Powerbuilder). I have not run into any notable problems other than that display issue. It works great with my dock too, though it is a small annoyance that when I go back and forth between docked and not docked I must wait during the boot and when kudzu detects a change in mouse (from the laptop's glide pad to the trackball attached to my dock or vice versa) I tell it to unconfigure the old mouse and configure the new one. It only take 20 seconds so it is not a big deal.

I am not interested in giving up either. They can have my laptop or my Linux when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

Where are the Linux laptops?

Posted May 18, 2004 1:08 UTC (Tue) by laclinux (guest, #21180) [Link]

If you want to buy a laptop with LInux pre-installed you should forget about the major vendors and go with one of the small vendors who specialize in Linux. Los Alamos Computers sells linux laptops and will preinstall Debian, RedHat, Mandrake, Suse, Slackware. The fact that various distros and vendors "certify" that their hardware/distro "works" with Linux means little unless you probe what this certification means. In particular you might ask whether key laptop features such as suspend to disk ("sleep") are certified to work. This hardware specific feature requires considerable expertise. LAC's laptops have suspend to disk that actually works.