451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
The key phrase, which is repeated, is the suit involves 'the Linux kernel as implemented by TomTom,' which is very different from 'the Linux kernel' when we're talking software code and patent infringement suits. While some usual suspicions are being raised, there are also some who generally agree this is not the first shot in a supposed war against Linux and open source." This strikes your editor as a bit of wishful thinking, but others may disagree.
Posted Feb 27, 2009 16:05 UTC (Fri)
by clugstj (subscriber, #4020)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 16:13 UTC (Fri)
by wilreichert (guest, #17680)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 18:15 UTC (Fri)
by jd (guest, #26381)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 19:12 UTC (Fri)
by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 16:20 UTC (Fri)
by kh (guest, #19413)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 16:39 UTC (Fri)
by kh (guest, #19413)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 18:28 UTC (Fri)
by jd (guest, #26381)
[Link] (1 responses)
Then there's always the risk-o-phobia aspect. If TomTom's implementation is "legally risky", then Microsoft's marketing people need only point out that Red Hat and Ubuntu "could be legally risky" without ever having to attack Linux per-se. Just an implementation. One at a time.
In either case, it's the Roman method of conquest - divide and conquer. So long as they can divide the community into the "targeted" and "everyone else" camps, with the "everyone else" merely spectating, they can rinse and repeat as often as they like. By the time such methods are usually spotted, there's not enough left to form a serious opposition.
Of course, Microsoft might not be wanting to kill Linux by this method, but rather wanting to seize the car navigation market by pwning one of the suppliers and then killing off the rest by sheer bulk, the way they're trying to do with anti-viral stuff. Then we would have to ask whether it makes a difference. Can we afford to ignore anti-competitive behaviour merely because it doesn't hurt us - yet?
As Gandalf noted on his journey to Gondor, it is too late to ask for help when the enemy is upon you.
Posted Feb 28, 2009 1:02 UTC (Sat)
by berndp (guest, #52035)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 19:22 UTC (Fri)
by jengelh (guest, #33263)
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Posted Feb 27, 2009 16:27 UTC (Fri)
by njd27 (subscriber, #5770)
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The headline should be "Microsoft uses patent threat against Linux kernel to try to prevent interoperability".
Posted Feb 27, 2009 21:07 UTC (Fri)
by proski (subscriber, #104)
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Sure, it would be better to defeat Microsoft, but having a fallback solution could be useful. Other hardware manufacturers would be more at ease using a patent-free implementation.
Posted Feb 27, 2009 18:07 UTC (Fri)
by linuxjacques (subscriber, #45768)
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I don't believe this for a microsecond.
Posted Feb 27, 2009 18:18 UTC (Fri)
by ebirdie (guest, #512)
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However, I find it a bit strange tactic since embedded system integrators haven't had pleasant times with FOSS and thus one would think the opposite tactic could play better to win the integrators souls.
Posted Feb 27, 2009 19:00 UTC (Fri)
by dkite (guest, #4577)
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Failing companies sue for market advantage.
Derek
Posted Feb 27, 2009 20:13 UTC (Fri)
by JoeF (guest, #4486)
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Posted Mar 2, 2009 16:21 UTC (Mon)
by SEMW (guest, #52697)
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They would, and, sure enough, are available at http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl#kernel.
Posted Feb 27, 2009 20:32 UTC (Fri)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
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Linux kernel has a GPLv2 licence. So, any implementation by TomTom is available to others. Which means that TomTom's implementation is potentially everybody's implementation as well.
I'm not sure if the author of this blog entry is naive or uninformed. Or maybe both.
Posted Feb 27, 2009 20:40 UTC (Fri)
by berndp (guest, #52035)
[Link] (7 responses)
So the 451 group reviewed the claims and is sure that only added and severely changed parts of the kernel are (supposedly) infringing some software patents?
Posted Feb 27, 2009 23:53 UTC (Fri)
by liljencrantz (guest, #28458)
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Posted Feb 28, 2009 0:58 UTC (Sat)
by berndp (guest, #52035)
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Posted Feb 28, 2009 21:46 UTC (Sat)
by liljencrantz (guest, #28458)
[Link] (4 responses)
I strongly suspect that the 451 group have not actually checked how much TomTom is customising the Linux kernel.
As to their conclusion, it seems unforgivably naive. If the lawsuit goes Microsofts way, we can be reasonably sure that they will go after more companies, and Canonical Red Hat and IBM won't be far away.
Posted Feb 28, 2009 21:53 UTC (Sat)
by berndp (guest, #52035)
[Link] (3 responses)
And ACK. Confirming the claims in court will motivate many companies - smaller and larger - to either not use Linux (to avoid moving into MSFTs firing line) or pay to not get sued by buying "licenses".
Posted Feb 28, 2009 23:43 UTC (Sat)
by mgb (guest, #3226)
[Link] (2 responses)
One can sue a thing. Such lawsuits are called "in rem". For example, one might sue some chunks of Linux source code.
One can also sue Does. For example, one might sue Linus Torvalds and Does 1 through 10,000,000,000.
IANAL TINLA YMMV YADAYADA
Posted Mar 1, 2009 0:28 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
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Posted Mar 1, 2009 1:33 UTC (Sun)
by mgb (guest, #3226)
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I have no idea of the number of suable fictitious persons (e.g. corporations) so I added a few billion Does to bring the count up to a nice round number. One traditionally specifies more Does than one thinks one will need.
Posted Feb 28, 2009 0:16 UTC (Sat)
by dulles (guest, #45450)
[Link] (4 responses)
Any group which creates blogs titled "451 CAOS Theory" and signs them "Jay Lyman" is suspect of being spooks or a front company for spooks.
Furthermore, these Microsoft patents are a complete joke, and I can't believe any educated patent official signed off on them. The stupidity of those aged 65+ is incredible.
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
Posted Feb 28, 2009 1:21 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Feb 28, 2009 4:41 UTC (Sat)
by dkite (guest, #4577)
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Tickle them? Tell them lawyer jokes?
Derek
Posted Mar 2, 2009 17:00 UTC (Mon)
by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545)
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Posted Feb 28, 2009 10:21 UTC (Sat)
by asherringham (guest, #33251)
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Alastair
Posted Feb 28, 2009 8:26 UTC (Sat)
by petegn (guest, #847)
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And why their FAT claims have not been canned yet is well a joke i mean they stole the entire system off someone else in the first place it's only CPM with the syntax changed .
Posted Mar 3, 2009 0:27 UTC (Tue)
by xoddam (guest, #2322)
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Posted Feb 28, 2009 17:27 UTC (Sat)
by dwon (subscriber, #54223)
[Link] (5 responses)
This sounds to me like a steaming pile of doubletalking bullshit. Of course they're not suing "Linux" or "open source": "Linux" and "open source" aren't legal entity, and therefore they can't break the law and they can't be sued. Microsoft is sending a message: "Don't sell products that contain Linux, or you'll be sued into oblivion. Windows is cheaper than Linux-plus-lawsuits, even if you ultimately win the lawsuits." If that's not an attack against the heart of Linux and FOSS, I'm not sure what is. How do software patents encourage innovation again, in actual practice?
Posted Feb 28, 2009 19:15 UTC (Sat)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link] (1 responses)
As far as I know most arguments rely on a proxy measurement. ie since it is difficult to measure "innovation" you have to pick something else, and if you pick the right something you can "prove" your case. In the most ridiculous cases they use the patents themselves as the proxy, meaning they're just begging the question. In other examples they basically make some argument about innovation being signalled by economic growth, and then they ignore the huge confounding factors and declare that a growing economy (or growing IT sector, or whatever) is proof that software patents are a good idea. Obviously that argument is a bit fragile right now, since the economy including IT sectors is in free fall.
Posted Mar 2, 2009 12:45 UTC (Mon)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
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Indeed, counting the number of patents granted is really only measuring only one thing economically: the amount of money being spent at the patent office and the growth of the patent sector. And that's all that the lobbyists pushing for software patents care about: the health and wealth of the patent bureaucracy in each economic zone of interest.
Posted Mar 3, 2009 10:25 UTC (Tue)
by Seegras (guest, #20463)
[Link] (2 responses)
The question can be asked far broader:
"How do patents encourage innovation again, in actual practice?"
And the answer is: The don't. There were some effort to prove this statistically, but all investigations turned up this is NOT SIGNIFICANT. So there is absolutely no proof that patents encourage innovation. neither is there that (also in the broad field, not only software-patents) that they stiffle innovation.
However, another investigation turned up the fact that the only field where revenues from patents are higher than the legal costs associated with them are pharmaceuticals. So even if patents do not stiffle innovation, they are everywere but in the pharmaceutic industry JUST LEGAL OVERHEAD.
Patents can be used for corporate warfare, of course, but does the state really need to maintain a patent-system whose only benefit in most industries is to pay rents for lawyers and to serve to provide ammunition for corporate warfare?
Posted Mar 3, 2009 12:14 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
if you don't include the revenue that companies get from selling items that include their own patents, and the fact that without patents they may not sell as many, if any of those items (due to competition that is prevented by the patent) then you are just cooking the numbers to make your own point.
Posted Mar 6, 2009 17:37 UTC (Fri)
by anton (subscriber, #25547)
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And that still would not prove that the patent encourages
innovation; the products based on the patent would be more expensive,
so there would be less and probably fewer products, reducing the
benefit of the innovation (that's what a monopoly does for you). If
the innovation would have come about without the patent (as most
patented innovations have), then the effect of the patent is
exclusively negative.
Concerning revenue from "items that include patents they own", how
would you count that? There is no way to know if an item "includes" a
patent in general. And if that revenue was lower without the patent
due to competition, then the consumers of these items or their
competition would have paid a lower price, and probably bought more
items, increasing the value coming out of the innovation.
Posted Mar 2, 2009 7:03 UTC (Mon)
by error27 (subscriber, #8346)
[Link]
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
Wow
Wow
Wow
Wow
Wow
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
I wonder if it's possible to make a patent free VFAT implementation that never creates legacy entries. Who really cares about DOS now? It's not like users are likely to access their SD cards in DOS.
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
I haven't seen pigs flying past my window recently.
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
It is just the next shot - and with a vastly bigger gun.
Is the result of that review available somewhere?
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
> sue legal entities like a person or an organization.
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
dead people, via GhostScript?
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
-William Shakespeare
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
The first thing a tyrant does is indeed to kill all the lawyers (or at
least, in these more squeamish times, suborn them).
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
CP/M filesystem format
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
Measuring the contamination
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source
How do patents encourage innovation?
if you don't include the revenue that companies get from
selling items that include their own patents, and the fact that
without patents they may not sell as many, if any of those items (due
to competition that is prevented by the patent) then you are just
cooking the numbers to make your own point.
His argument may not be convincing, but that's far from cooking. If
the patent really was innovative, one would expect other companies to license the patent,
and there would be significant revenues from licensing.
451 Group: Microsoft suing TomTom, not Linux, not open source