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Open source question for schools (BBC)

The BBC takes a look at open source software in education, specifically as a cost-saving measure. "Steve Beswick, director of education for Microsoft UK, told the BBC that while open source software may, on face value, offer savings, there could be hidden costs, both financial and otherwise. [...] 'A lot of people are trained in Microsoft-based technologies, so there may be increased costs in re-training to learn how to use open source solutions,' he said."
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Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 26, 2009 21:18 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

The discussion is about open-source software in education and the Microsoft guy says that one of the downsides is that people might have to learn something new.

The mind boggles.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 26, 2009 23:39 UTC (Mon) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

Being in the education business does not suddenly make one excited about the prospect of relearning how to do one's daily work in a different word processor.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 0:21 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

So don't learn how to do it in a different word processor. But don't deny your students the learning opportunity. Surely a student who graduates knowing more than one office suite (who understands the underlying principles of word-processing) is better educated than one who only knows a single tool and nothing else.

Your comment is pretty depressing. If you are in the "education business", I'm very glad I never had you as a teacher.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 4:05 UTC (Tue) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

Surely a student who graduates knowing more than one office suite (who understands the underlying principles of word-processing) is better educated than one who only knows a single tool and nothing else.

No. Learning two different word processors would be an exercise in tedium, and a waste of classroom time. You can get the idea just fine from one.

I agree that it doesn't matter much which applications you pick to expose students to first, because students can pick up different software as necessary later. But I wouldn't go so far as to completely dismiss the costs of the switch, or to treat resistance to a switch as a sign of a lack of intellectual curiosity.

Learning how to get page numbers right in open office just isn't an intellectually stimulating exercise. Good teachers and staff have more interesting things to learn.

Of course they have to spend some time on that kind of stuff anyway periodically, as technology changes, new versions come along, etc. And when that happens I'd hope open source applications would be considered, for all the obvious reasons.

I only object to the idea that "learning" how to use openoffice is really "learning" in any meaningful sense.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 8:07 UTC (Tue) by tjasper (subscriber, #4310) [Link]

-----
No. Learning two different word processors would be an exercise in tedium, and a waste of classroom time. You can get the idea just fine from one.
-----
So It shouldn't matter which one they learn from, and therefore the argument as to learning one or the other can come down to the initial cost.... Afterall, if you've got the idea just fine from one, then there's no extra cost in switching to the other.

-----
I only object to the idea that "learning" how to use openoffice is really "learning" in any meaningful sense.
-----
And "learning" how to use M$ Office is "learning" in a more meaningful sense? I fail to see the point of this statement with reference to office suites. Learning one tool only closes the door to finding out better ways of doing things with different paradigms from different tools leading to innovation....

YellowShed

If the switch is hard then you schools should switch right now

Posted Jan 27, 2009 11:38 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

There are two possibilities:
1. Switch is easy... or
2. Switch is hard and painful.

In first case you should switch right away to save costs (as it does not matter if you "learn" MS Office or OpenOffice.org).

In second case the question is "what sanctions were applied to moron who tried to stop this switch". Because if switch is hard and school continue to teach skills which will require permanent payments to foreign company it's called TREASON and it should be STOPPED.

As you can see it only makes sense to discuss "to switch or not to switch" when cost of switching is low (as I suspect it is)....

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 12:57 UTC (Tue) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

Actually, learning two word processors is NOT an exercise in tedium. Of course, if all you know is Word and the word clone called OpenOffice Writer I might agree with you - I *HATE* *BOTH* of them because their fundamental design is *AWFUL*.

But I learnt my wordprocessing using Pr1meWord (aka WordMarc Composer) v1, progressed to v2, learnt WordCraft, and then WordPerfect, and finally Word.

WordPerfect is steadily getting worse and worse as it migrates towards the totally borken Word design, but it is still a pretty decent Word Processor. The thing is, the earlier programs taught me how to *word* *process*. All Word teaches me is how to type a letter - it *hides* from me everything it's doing. As does Writer. As *didn't* WordPerfect.

If I was teaching word processing, I'd make everybody do it in "reveal codes" mode in WordPerfect (or make them use something like LaTeX). So that they can *see* what the word processor is doing *and* *why*.

If you've learnt that, switching between word processors is easy. (At least, between non-confuscated word processors.) When WordPerfect does something weird, I can usually find out *why* very quickly and fix it. When Word (or Writer) does something weird, it's very easy to guess *what* it thinks it's doing. Trying to work out *why* it's doing it so I can stop or correct it is usually a nightmare.

Using Word as a "stupid user" is dead easy. Using it as a "power user" is a nightmare. WordPerfect is easy in both modes (imnsho - and I'm well aware mo may not be yo - because it's yo!).

Cheers,
Wol

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 20:38 UTC (Tue) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link]

Learning how to use a proper, real text editor, as opposed to these "word processors", would certainly not be a useless exercise. Emacs and vi may not be "WYSIWYG", but I'm still not entirely sold on WYSIWYG being a good thing, all told.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 18:13 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I only object to the idea that "learning" how to use openoffice is really "learning" in any meaningful sense.

I agree with you. I hate word-processors and office suites in general. But claiming that the need for "training" is a negative factor is a bit rich; educational institutions are there to train people.

I don't think schools should teach applications like spreadsheets, word-processors, etc. They should teach kids how computers work and give them an introduction to programming. Kids can easily figure out the rest on their own.

Learning how to get page numbers right in open office just isn't an intellectually stimulating exercise. Good teachers and staff have more interesting things to learn.

Absolutely. They shouldn't be spending time mucking with MS Office either. However, since long-term savings are substantial, I think they can make the sacrifice and learn a bit of OpenOffice (or better yet, abandon word-processors completely.)

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 9:38 UTC (Tue) by jmansion (guest, #36515) [Link]

> I'm very glad I never had you as a teacher

Hmm - and I hope you're never in a position to put open source political agendas before pupils' interests.

I've been dismayed by the way some schools IT is set up but the reality is that retrraining the support infrastructure would be a huge cost and often there are specific packages that teachers and pupils use that aren't available except on Windows, at least for the UK curriculum.

Its not as easy as it might sound, and I'd rather the teachers (many of whom have no interest in IT except as a teaching aid, and then sometimes only because they're told to use it) stay in their comfort zone and teach effectively - whether or not my kids can handle OpenOffice as well as Work and (increasingly) Powerpoint is neither here nor there, compared to a level of comfort in using computers and an understanding of when and how to use spreadsheet facilities like formulae and ranges.

Please, lets keep the politics and evangelism away from educational processes. If you're not involved in education, then keep your opinions to yourself until you have some understanding of what would be involved in the practicalities of using this stuff. Its not just a question of setting up Edbuntu or whatever.

(I'm still trying to wean my kids onto thin clients on my Ubuntu server at home. No way I would try this at their school though.)

Sorry, but no.

Posted Jan 27, 2009 11:46 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Please, lets keep the politics and evangelism away from educational processes.

No can do. Educational process affects country and it's politics for years and may be decades. If you teach MS Office inevitable outcome is dependency of your country on foreign company under U.S. control. This country can be friendly today, but hostile tomorrow (yes, I know it's pretty unlikely in case of U.K., but possibility is still there). Thus if the switch is hard (I don't believe it is BTW) then continued usage of MS Office can be considered TREASON.

That's how I start the discussion about open source software - and believe me it makes quite a difference. If you position questions in such a way then suddenly switch becomes much simpler and we are talking about best possible time to switch and not about the need itself...

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 11:53 UTC (Tue) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

Please, lets keep the politics and evangelism away from educational processes. If you're not involved in education, then keep your opinions to yourself until you have some understanding of what would be involved in the practicalities of using this stuff. Its not just a question of setting up Edbuntu or whatever.

But it's not rocket science either. Whether or not it is a good idea that Microsoft sponsors universities, as I believe they do on a rather large scale, is not such a crazy practical question. You seem to raise this issue yourself.

However, you missed the point completely, in your haste to dismiss it as "Open Source evangelism". The question pertained to the relation between the ability to use a particular word processor and the ability to process words.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 1:12 UTC (Tue) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

Idiotic, isn't it?

The main problem I see with all this is that in many developed countries we are not teaching our kids enough on how things are _made_ and how they _work_. For many of the new generation, products of any kind are things that are purchased from overseas.

The major benefit of having FOSS in the classrooms is to give kids the ability to dismantle and reassemble things (in this case software). Instead, we are still telling them that wealth and prosperity is built by buying and selling real estate. Are we not going to learn anything from the current financial disaster?

Whether one uses an open source word processor for writing an assignment or not is of the secondary importance. And what some teachers think about learning new things themselves is particularly unimportant.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 16:37 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

A similar complaint has been made about developing countries - that they had universities which churned out people who knew how, but not why and thus you'd have 500 graduate engineers who could build you a bridge or jet engine or whatever, but they were essentially just functioning as an old fashioned AI expert system - if you had a novel problem they were useless.

However I don't think this generalisation has ever been true beyond individual institutions, and it's usually a much smaller problem than that, perhaps restricted to a single course or even a single teacher. It can even be caused by inappropriate selection criteria (e.g. if you deliberately exclude all the mavericks as too disruptive, you may not only lose the chance to educate the mavericks, you lose the positive influence on your other students of seeing radical alternatives tried).

It's quite apparent for example that even though my sister and I went to very different schools (the area we grew up in selects children for different schools based on aptitude tests at age 12) both schools explained /why/ you'd want to be able to solve an algebraic equation, and so on. Neither regarded its purpose as simply cramming knowledge into kids heads so that they can pass exams. Meanwhile, some of the people I met later at university experienced school as essentially meaningless exercises which they happened to be good at. They were surprised to discover that their undergraduate courses expected them to think independently and to figure out how to apply their knowledge rather than prove that they'd learned something in an abstract sense.

Its unfortunate that for most kids LOGO (if its even still taught at all) ends after 2-3 years at primary school. The educational framework accompanying LOGO is suitable for secondary education, it would make a more natural accompaniment to GCSE mathematics than a lot of what's being offered now, and it lets kids grow naturally from the turtle robot to on-screen geometry, from there to abstract mathematical problems, and then to the material we presently have to teach 18 year olds in an "Introduction to Programming" course.

Oh the irony!

Posted Jan 27, 2009 23:47 UTC (Tue) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> Its unfortunate that for most kids LOGO (if its even still taught at all) ends after 2-3 years at primary school. The educational framework accompanying LOGO is suitable for secondary education, it would make a more natural accompaniment to GCSE mathematics than a lot of what's being offered now, and it lets kids grow naturally from the turtle robot to on-screen geometry, from there to abstract mathematical problems, and then to the material we presently have to teach 18 year olds in an "Introduction to Programming" course.

Exactly. We do not give kids enough credit - I'm sure many of them could develop into brilliant developers if they were given early enough opportunities. Nothing beats FOSS in this area. It is the only system that offers a complete stack that is ready to be disassembled and reassembled with a full view of the "moving parts".

Instead, we seem to have reduced our formula to prosperity to a giant pyramid scheme.

Misuse of Terms

Posted Jan 27, 2009 0:42 UTC (Tue) by ldo (subscriber, #40946) [Link]

Overall a reasonable, balanced article. However, I would take issue with phrases like “offering both licensed and open source software to students” and “using a combination of both commercial and open source”—who says open source isn’t “licensed” and can’t be “commercial”?

Misuse of Terms

Posted Jan 27, 2009 9:42 UTC (Tue) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link]

who says open source isn’t “licensed” and can’t be “commercial”

That's an excellent comment. I think it will serve libre software advocates well to drive this point home forcefully. There is no difference on both these two issues. Libre software is usually licensed, and can be commercial. But it is enabling rather than limiting, and comes without a draconian EULA. The idea that software is something that is infinitely malleable, extendible, and open to tinkering (rather than off-the-shelve units bought, used, and discarded once the binary blob no longer wants to play) is a powerful meme that has far from reached its potential.

I'm certain there'll be hidden costs.

Posted Jan 27, 2009 1:04 UTC (Tue) by jd (guest, #26381) [Link]

Things like Microsoft refusing to honour educational discounts, Microsoft reps harassing the schools to switch to Microsoft alternatives, Microsoft causing problems on tech support calls on whatever MS products are used, all the stuff they've done before when people switch.

The odds of there being any hidden costs that are real rather than artificial are minimal. I've worked in programming Computer Aided Learning apps and I've worked as a teacher, and frankly I can think of very little that Microsoft offers that I'd ever use for such a purpose. It's hard enough to think of ANY closed-source package that is truly effective in education.

Flash-based "edutainment", trivial games, some of the most obnoxious music on the planet... It's no wonder kids need to be drugged to their eyeballs! When I was a kid, my father wrote some trivial educational software on a Commodore PET. That was 1978. I still remember the flashcard format - any type of question (maths, english, geography) on a flashcard on any part of the screen in any size for a random 1-3 seconds. It then required an answer in another 5 seconds. I can't tell you if it helped, but it probably didn't hurt.

Since then, I've seen software with dumber interfaces, nauseating music, really horrible cartoon graphics, and point-and-click multiple-choice (which is always bad as you can invariably reduce such questions to two possible answers even if you know nothing about the subject). This is the best the closed-source world can do, apparently. Thirty years of software research and they can't manage a better product than a chemistry lecturer on a braindead computer in, oh, I think it was about an hour. Maybe less.

Open Source alternatives might not impress me much either, but there is a difference. I can add to an Open Source alternative. If I think my experience can result in an improvement, I can make it. I can't do that with a closed-source package.

When working as a CAL Officer for a university, I looked into remote teaching methods. There was no commercial software out there that would do the trick for under $10,000 a seat and had almost no educational software that would work with it, but in the open-source world, I had the ability to do low-cost audio/videoconferencing, whiteboarding, shared text editing, question delivery, answer gathering, sharing of computer screens and sharing of web browsers, where the only significant cost was a quickcam for under $100. The idea of a teleconferencing kit for remote teaching and correspondence courses, where greater student/teacher interaction was both needed and now actually possible, was under serious discussion. The chancellor was extremely interested in the idea. Eventually, a very respectable subset of the original whitepaper actually got deployed.

Now compare this virtual lecture theatre/seminar with a Shockwave or Flash application where you point and click until something happens. Or perhaps you would care to compare it with a powerpoint presentation. Interaction is minimal, intelligence required is non-existent, learning is indistinguishable from zero. The only way you can stretch your mind in such mind-numbing environments is by first reducing it to near absolute zero when your brain will collapse into the size of a Bose-Einstein Condensate superatom.

This is not to say that a game element is bad. Game elements can be very good, but to function as educational game elements, it must not be possible for someone who has not learned the material (but has learned how to take tests) to score higher than someone who does know the material but isn't necessarily an expert at exam technique. Ideally, it should never be possible to pass on exam technique alone, even if that technique is perfect, and it should never be possible to fail completely if you know the expected amount of material but are poor at tests.

Nobody is going to take this seriously, because I'm not a multi-billionaire and am not a significant voice, but for what it may be worth, I throw open this challenge. Prove me wrong. Show me closed-source CAL material that meets or exceeds the standards I've outlined, that demonstrably teaches the material and not the work-arounds. Show me how this software would work for group learning as well as individual learning. Show me how it handles the wide range in intellectual abilities and intellectual types.

I don't think you can. I'm willing to let you try, I'm willing to be shown to be wrong, but I'm not going to hold my breath in anticipation. It's not an impossible task, you don't have to even match the Open Source solution I had developed in the mid-90s, you only have to show me you've anything at all. Either that, or admit that that's beyond what the commercial vendors can do.

I'm certain there'll be hidden costs.

Posted Jan 27, 2009 18:18 UTC (Tue) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

You show me your open-source CAL!

[This is serious. You clearly did a good amount of research, wrote a white paper on it, and got part of it implemented. Why don't you volunteer an article here? I'd for one would be very interested.]

I'm certain there'll be hidden costs. And hidden (to some) benefits for Open Source

Posted Feb 6, 2009 18:20 UTC (Fri) by white_owl (guest, #56541) [Link]

It seems obvious that there is a big advantage to schools in using software that students can install at home and use there. If, for example, students were using Inkscape to create graphics. They could take their work home, use Inkscape at at home. I realize that not every kid has a computer at home that they can install software on, but with something like Inkscape which runs accross many platforms (Linux, Mac, Windows plus other user supplied ports {an additional value for schools - which strive to be inclusive}) this has to be a benefit.

This is just one example of a program that does a great job in a area that usually requires expensive software (and IMHO has a great interface for people learning illustration) . There are a number of other examples, desktop publishing, music, and for younger kids Sugar and all the activities from the OLPC project.

Nothing new here

Posted Jan 27, 2009 1:11 UTC (Tue) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]

They are doing exactly what anyone experienced in the industry and familiar with the issue would expect. This is a "dog bites a man" story --- there's no angle, no twist, no "news."

Naturally Microsoft will continue to characterize their market dominance as a "training" advantage. "(Practically) Everyone using PCs has had MS Windows on them and they all used it (at least a little) so there's no further "training" costs hidden in sticking with us." That's their claim.

Of course it's fallacious in at least two ways: one it assumes that the primary applications in a given environment (in this case some educational settings) are the same as those that the users have been exposed to before. Also it assumes that there haven't been, and won't be, significant changes to those applications that will require re-training.

Now I like to point out that anyone who learned the basics of using UNIX (shell commands, using vi and the concepts of text editing) can still use those same skills and command with almost no required changes, over thirty years later. Sure you can also use all sorts of new stuff. Under Linux most of the basic GNU shell commands and utilities have a multitude of additional options (colorized 'ls' and syntax highlighting in 'vim' for example). However, the basics have remained compatible.

I was a user of MS-DOS (from circa 3.1) and MS Windows before their version 3 (when it was MS Windows/286 and MS Windows/386 as distinctly separate products). I've used '95 and '98, NT, W2K, XP and even fiddled with Vista briefly in a store. Yes you can still start a "dos prompt" (at least CMD.EXE) ... but you can't effectively use that with MS Windows. (Pity the poor fool who saves at attachment in MS Outlook and tries to separately open it using the command line or find that file from an already open copy of Excel, Word, Powerpoint or heaven forbid any other application. It's amazing how complicated that can make that --- what's wrong with a simple home directory and drop my all of my stuff ... somewhere under there?).

The dirty little secret of using Microsoft TCO is that you'll have to play for upgrades and re-training every couple of years. It's their equivalent of "planned obsolescence" ... a strategy which is purely for their benefit.

That's how we, as a community, can counter this particular strategem of theirs. Educate their customers and sensitize them to the hidden costs they've already been paying for years.

We also need to teach managers and decision makers of the fundamental property of "sunk costs." You don't let the money you spent yesterday dictate your spending decisions today. Yesterday's investment isn't going to return more or less value after your costs are "sunk" into it. Too many decision makers choose to throw good money after bad based on the intangible political downsides ("if I change my mind now then it proves to other managers I was an idiot in my earlier choices"). I suspect that far too much of Microsoft's current revenues are justified by key customers on these irrational terms.

Nothing new here

Posted Jan 27, 2009 4:29 UTC (Tue) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link]

I would suggest another strategy.

Keep making the software better. There are good educational applications
available in free software. Support those who are doing this stuff.
Teachers and classrooms have specific needs, find out what they are, fill
them. It usually isn't complicated, just specific.

This forces Microsoft to compete in an impossible game. Against a
dramatically cheaper product, they have to produce dramatically better
software.

If the only way Microsoft can maintain it's hold on the market is by arm
twisting, it is only a matter of time.

Derek

Open source question for schools (BBC)

Posted Jan 27, 2009 8:24 UTC (Tue) by MortenSickel (subscriber, #3238) [Link]

As if there are no re-training needed to switch to the latest version of MS office.... I don't want to know how much time I've spent trying to find more advanced features in that mess of a user interface (it may of course be a better ui for those new to word processing, but for those of us who have been using word heavily for a longer time, it is a nightmare)

Why using a lot of space to discuss MS software? Well, they have themselves made the "re-training" argument moot....

(Using Linux voluntarily, not using MS unless I get paid for it...)

M.

Open source question for schools (BBC)

Posted Jan 27, 2009 11:43 UTC (Tue) by njd27 (subscriber, #5770) [Link]

The sad thing is that Microsoft is forced to keep changing Word every 4 years despite the fact that word processing is essentially a solved problem. This is because without being able to periodically sell software upgrades their revenue stream would be broken. So anything the students learn about Word will be irrelevant within a few years anyway.

Schools should teach OpenOffice, simply because it doesn't have to keep changing.

Open source question for schools (BBC)

Posted Jan 28, 2009 8:40 UTC (Wed) by pauly (subscriber, #8132) [Link]

> As if there are no re-training needed to switch to the latest version of
> MS office....
Good point. After my dad had retired as an engineer, he found the time to
get himself a new PC. At work, he had to use MS Office 2003.
I did not urge him into any direction, but advised him to try for himself.
So he compared OpenOffice to MS Office 2007 and quickly figured out that
his previous investment in learning word processors was much better
preserved when using OO. So even the argument of "keeping changes to a
minimum" may lead away from MS, especially when you're facing the switch
from 2003 to 2007.

Martin

Openness and Microsoft

Posted Jan 27, 2009 13:48 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

Interesting that the Microsoft spokesman concedes the significance of ODF:

Mr Beswick claimed that Microsoft was not against open source, and was "committed to interoperability" illustrated, he said, by the support for the Open Document Format in Service Pack 2 of Office 2007.

What's interesting is that I was reading the university newspaper the other day and since the Norwegian public sector is now required to publish content in open formats, in an article on what the university (of Oslo) still has to accomplish in this regard, the tone of the Microsoft representative is somewhat different:

Press Officer at Microsoft Norway, Eirik Lae Solberg, would like their preferred open format, Open XML, to be included in the list of obligatory formats. [...] - No, the format is owned by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), so anyone can use it with their software.

Note to apologists: when you let people buy standards, their money also buys excuses amongst the bureaucrats to preserve the wallet-fattening status quo. It's good to see that OOXML remains off the list of real, open standards, at least in Norway.

Openness and Microsoft

Posted Feb 24, 2009 3:43 UTC (Tue) by pjm (subscriber, #2080) [Link]

The interesting thing is that these “somewhat different tone” statements aren't actually contradictory. Even if OOXML were documented in sufficient detail that implementing it is “a simple matter of programming”, it's nevertheless large enough that it isn't practical to do so, so in a practical sense OOXML is not interoperable even if one were to consider it an “open format”.

(Incidentally, when insisting on open standards, one would usually consider not just whether a specification is available, but whether the format has been shaped by several people's implementation experiences.)

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