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Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:23 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455)
In reply to: Copyright by dskoll
Parent article: Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

If your logic were correct, the existence of free software and free content such as linux, wikipedia... would have already destroyed many of the industries that you mention. Since we can see that is not the case, you must be overestimating something, or just plain wrong. :)

Would it alter those industries? No doubt. For certain many of those alterations would be for the better. Would there be some losses? Probably, most would pale compared to the benefits. Unjust laws are unjust laws whether they have good or bad consequences. Regulating the abstract is unjust no matter what fancy names or noble goals you assign to it.

Physical property, i.e. property that is unreplicatable, needs to be regulated one way or another, whether you believe in personal property (I will claim everyone does), or communal property only. So any laws applied to physical property at least have a solid ground to justify their existence, with or without a government. The lack of regulation of physical property (with or without) government leads to obvious continual conflict.

If however, physical property could be replicated, it would be insane to think that it should therefore still be regulated. Why should I not be able to replicate my universe without you or anyone else in it? :) On what ethical grounds could anyone stand to prevent such a thing if it were possible? Religious ones only most likely.

What extra constraints do abstract replicatable things have over imaginary replicatable physical property that somehow mysteriously makes it merit regulation then? I will claim none. Unlike physical property, abstract things cannot be regulated without governments, it is unnatural. Imagine the dog claiming ownership to the idea of hunting in packs? Preposterous! But dogs certainly know who owns the meal they just caught. And if they caught it together they even know under what agreement, the alpha dog will get to eat first. No government intervention required, regulation of physical property is natural, even non humans do it.

Regulating abstract "property" on the other hand, is very unnatural.

I still remember as a child having been first introduced to copyright (and seeing others introduced to it), it was very strange! It was hard to accept that something might be morally wrong with sharing. I think the evidence today shows that most people still don't accept it to be morally wrong to share, even if they accept the need for the laws against it pushed on them from above!

I dread the thought of my children having to distort their minds to attempt to comprehend such an injustice when they become old enough. However, I have no problem with my daughter telling my son that a doll is hers (if it is). I do not cringe when she does, it is natural and healthy. I will not be upset if she resists him taking it physically. But certainly I am delighted when she shares it with him (on her own).

But if my son were to tell a friend (when he gets older) that his friend cannot hop skip and jump the same way he does or he will beat him up, naturally I would be upset (no matter how creative or unique his hop skip and jump is!) Copyright and patents only do the same. Why do they get so much respect simply because they purport to have some "noble" and unprovable goal to them: "to further promote useful arts and innovation", blah blah blah, or in your case, support industries that would be destroyed without them?

Yet, these laws do so much harm that is provable! Real harm, that each one of us can feel every time we want to share music or videos with our friends. Or, reuse a building block as software engineers. Or, the slightly more distant but still real harm of preventing drugs from being sold cheaply to people dying. This music can, undeniably, be copied at little cost, unlike the weak presumption that they would not have been created without the copyright reward. These drugs often do not cost much to manufacture, an undebatable fact, unlike the other weak presumption that they would not have been created without the patent reward. As for the software building blocks, I do not think that I need to elaborate on that one here.

Preventing us from sharing!!! How can we be so hypocritically constantly scolding our children with the words "share" and then telling them that they may not share the things that they could share so easily, abstract ideas, words, sounds!! Does sharing not hold any value if it does not entail sacrifice? Obsurd! Abolish anti-sharing laws now! :)

It is a crime that wild speculation over "potential innovation" can reduce people's freedoms. I don't believe those speculations one bit, quite to the contrary. By definition these laws restrict innovation! They prevent new ideas from being used by others, they freeze innovation in time since it cannot be expanded upon freely. That is a real consequence, no speculation required.

These laws are nothing more than protectionist laws. They ensure that whomever runs an industry today will run the industry tomorrow. The first comer has a natural advantage in any market, he does not need protection! If anything, the newcomers, the actual potential innovators do. The establishment does not need to innovate to maintain dominance, it only needs to prevent innovation. It is quite clear why these laws exists. Want to encourage innovation, remove these laws so that the establishment will continue to need to innovate to stay ahead. Believe me, I will not shed any tears if it destroys a protected industry, even one I work in (but fear not, it won't.) :)


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Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:06 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

why would a publisher pay a writer if their competitor could wait for them to publish a book, buy one copy, and flood the market with copies?

you could argue that the head start the first publisher has would protect him, but if the second publisher has better marketing or distribution channels that would not be the case.

digital copies may be effectively free, but the work to generate the first copy is not. if you eliminate copyright then the entire cost of creating the work must be recovered by the first sale (because the creator has no reason to believe that they will ever make a second sale)

even in software:

many people do believe that the code they write should be able to be used by anyone for any purpose, those people select BSD licenses.

other people believe that other people should be able to use the software they write, but only if you share your changes.

if you eliminated copyright entirely it would be like making everything be under the BSD license (you may be able to copy something without violating copyright, but if the source isn't published you can't get at it to copy it)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 3:27 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

many people do believe that the code they write should be able to be used by anyone for any purpose, those people select BSD licenses.

That is simply not true. Please explain how I can legally use BSD code after it is compiled and included in some proprietary binary? - I can't. You did say anyone, not just the first person to receive the code.

other people believe that other people should be able to use the software they write, but only if you share your changes.

Many people believe that this requirement is only an ethical requirement to help counteract the evil of copyright. If this were the only thing that copyright provided, I certainly would deem it unethical. It is only because of copyright that the restrictions that the GPL imposes are honorable. It's a little like Robin Hood stealing from the rich, we honor it because he is presumably stealing back what was stolen from the poor in the first place. If the rich however acquired their loot ethically his actions would be dispecable.

if you eliminated copyright entirely it would be like making everything be under the BSD license (you may be able to copy something without violating copyright, but if the source isn't published you can't get at it to copy it)

No, not at all. Without copyright all code would be much closer to the GPL. As mentioned above, with BSD code I may be prohibited from using your code if it is relabeled proprietary. This cannot happen to any code without copyright. The worst that can happen without copyright is code obfuscation and tivoization, but there would be no legal barriers!!! As mentioned in my parent post, this would just lead to better tools to deal with obfuscation and tivoization making the code effectively GPL. I did forget about tivoization in my parent post, but that is only a GPL3 protection.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 11:13 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link]

Imagine there's no Cisco, it's easy if you try
No RMS behind us, above us only Skype
Imagine all the people
Abandoning copyright

You may say you don't need it
And you're not the only one
I really hope someday some anarchist will write something non-copyrighted but intelligent and immensely popular and widespread about peace, love, tivoization and tolerance like the Bill of Rights, the Magna Carta or a great recipe for chicken tikka or maybe some kernel driver
And the world will live as one

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:49 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link]

"That is simply not true. Please explain how I can legally use BSD code after it is compiled and included in some proprietary binary? - I can't. You did say anyone, not just the first person to receive the code."

Presumably, you can get a copy from wherever the author of the proprietary program did. You have to distinguish between "the code" (the thing the original author wrote and licensed) and "a particular copy or derivative of the code" (which may or may not be available or visible to you).

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:22 UTC (Fri) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

+1^9999

There may be details we could disagree about (in terms of the real implementation of what the law should be), but the main points were very well postulated.

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