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Copyright

Posted Dec 11, 2008 22:32 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
In reply to: Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations by martinfick
Parent article: Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Nothing is safe as long as copyright exists. You want safety, advocate the removal of copyright laws entirely!

That would destroy many industries, including the software industry, the music industry, the film industry, newspapers, magazines, photographers... you really want to go there?

We need reasonable copyright laws. The DMCA is an example of going way too far in one direction, and getting rid of copyright entirely goes way too far in the other.

I run a small software company that produces both GPL'd and traditional proprietary software. Without copyright protection, we'd be out of business and I'd have to lay off all our employees.


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Copyright

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:25 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

Nothing is safe as long as copyright exists. You want safety, advocate the removal of copyright laws entirely!
That would destroy many industries, including the software industry, the music industry, the film industry, newspapers, magazines, photographers... you really want to go there?
Impressive hyperbole. Some people also say that Free and Open Source Software will destroy the software industry, but I don't believe that either. I think all of those industries will thrive just fine without artificial restrictions. It seems quite clear that the software industry can function just fine with software that everyone can share and build on, and most of the money in the software industry lies in custom software development anyway, so software seems quite safe without copyright. The other industries you mentioned have similar properties: they rely on skills that not everyone has, and people who don't have those skills will pay for people who do. Photographers seem like a perfect example: how much of the money in photography really relies on restricted copying? People pay a photographer to take pictures, and regardless of what they can do with those pictures afterward they need to pay to have them taken in the first place. So yes, I really want to go there.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:51 UTC (Fri) by elanthis (subscriber, #6227) [Link]

Yes, Open Source / Free Software still lets the software market survive because people are paid to write custom, in-house software or modify publicly available code. Aside from the fact that "in-house software" is just "proprietary code that you just don't know about" and that the FSF is actually against that stuff too, you're apparently confused about the differences between being paid to make something work and being paid for creating something that has no function on its own.

Novels, art work, movies... these are not software. People do not get paid to create novels just for the sake of having a novel -- they get paid because the novels sell, and they sell because people have to buy them to get a hold of them. That's not like software, where having the software exist is an economic advantage in itself, even if others can get a hold of it for free. Free Software destroys the market for selling software -- that is a fact. The software industry as a whole survives because software -- as a tool, rather than as a creative work -- is still worth good money even if you can't sell it. A novel isn't. Nor is a painting, or a movie, or any other purely creative work. Outside of things that a company needs in order to create some still-sellable product (training videos, manuals, and advertising artwork, mostly), the creative output of the world will vastly decrease. Even a lot of the "hobbyist" art is still made with the assumption that at least a _little_ profit can be made off of it; enough to recuperate costs if nothing else.

Corporate greed and copyright abuse really suck. Anarchy is also a source of suck. Moving from one extreme to the other just means that we go from creative works being too locked down to creative works being drastically reduced in number.

Frankly, you're a fucking idiot. Thank God people like you don't get to actually determine the laws... or lack of laws, as the case may be.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 4:32 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

Aside from the fact that "in-house software" is just "proprietary code that you just don't know about"

Proprietary only because it is implicitly unless declared not by copyright law. None of it would be discouraged or not written without copyright protection, so how is it relevant?

Free Software destroys the market for selling software -- that is a fact.

Yeah!! That would be delightful. It would still get created though! :)

The software industry as a whole survives because software -- as a tool, rather than as a creative work -- is still worth good money even if you can't sell it.

How is it worth money if you can't sell it? I suppose you meant is was worth paying money to create it.

Nor is a painting, or a movie, or any other purely creative work.

I guess all those movies were made for free before they had VCRs to sell them, no one ever thought of showing them in a theater for money! Do you suppose it took copyright for the Greeks to build amphitheaters to have plays in? I guess all those masterpieces sitting in museums, housing worship and many businesses, commissioned and created without copyright are just a figment of our imaginations. :) Your wild hyperbole is wildly contradicted by history. It always amazes me how authoritarian propaganda has just as strong a resistance to facts in people's minds as religion does.

the creative output of the world will vastly decrease

Even if this speculation were true, it hardly justifies the loss of freedom. Your speculative end does not justify the copyright means.

Even a lot of the "hobbyist" art is still made with the assumption that at least a _little_ profit can be made off of it; enough to recuperate costs if nothing else.

Assumptions or not it would probably still get created. I might assume that the cute chick will sleep with me because I write a great song, but I hardly think I should be entitled to enforce that, do you?

Anarchy is also a source of suck.

Hardly, I dream for it. The worst anarchy ever would not likely involve someone stealing 30% of my annual income. It takes a large government to commit large crimes... And, even as an anarchist I refrain from cursing at people on such a respectful forum, relax brother. I think we need more anarchists, come join us in peace and love and stop screaming at people who are not trying to force you to do anything. ;) We just want to be free!

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:03 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I've long found anarchy curious, because it's self-evidently unstable. As
an anarchist how would you stop people from stealing the entire contents
of your house? You could hire men with guns to stop it (-> paying for
police), but how would you stop them from doing exactly the same thing?
Relying on their reputation sounds all very good until you realise that
you'd have to do that *every single day* and the first day you're unlucky,
you've lost everything.

(I had a discussion with a libertarian a while back in which it was
seriously proposed that streetlights should stay off unless you'd paid for
that specific streetlight, and that lighting away from your home should be
implemented by street-by-street reciprocal agreements. Thus we save the
huge expense of paying for public street lighting... and spend fifty times
as much on lawyers for an unreliable lighting system instead. Yay.)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:50 UTC (Fri) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487) [Link]

I can't speak for anarcho-capitalism brand of libertarians (the kind that would charge you for using streetlights), but if you're really curious, proper (i.e. anti-capitalist) anarchists do have a plan or two for the problem of crime, among many others. To keep this Linux-related, just apt-get install anarchism to read that FAQ online.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:53 UTC (Fri) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487) [Link]

to read that FAQ online

should read as "to read that FAQ offline", of course.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 15:19 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Actually...

What happens around my town is that building corporations come in, buy up a farm on the edge of town, then build a cluster of houses. They build the streets, provide for gas/water/sewage/electricity. (The electricity is provided by another private company working under contract from the state, but the gas/water/sewage, is city provided, but not city built.)

So for things like streetlamps, garbage collection (which is another entirely private company), street cleanup and maintenance for those communities then everything is paid for by individuals who buy the houses and join the housing community.

All it all it works out quite well and even though your dealing with relatively small numbers of people the services are usually cheaper then what you pay in additional city taxes and the services are higher quality.

Dividing up street lamp into a individual ownership thing is a bit extreme, but that's one thing that can at least be taken care of fairly obviously without much need for high-levels of government.

------------------------------------------

Anarchy is a idealized society.

In a perfect society there is no need for any government or law or whatever because everybody behaves themselves. If they were to break any laws in todays society it would because they had a good and sound reason to.

Of course we both know that would never happen.

----------------------------

One thing though.... If you had a private police force that worked for the members in a community and had their paychecks come from those people directly and could be fired for pissing them off...

then they would be spending a great deal more of their time patrolling neighborhoods, investigating crimes, and protecting private property then going around and writing traffic violation tickets and essentially terrorizing motorists. (in a mild way, not a 'blow up your family' way)

It wouldn't be much different then what you have in small communities were you have a sheriffs that is elected and hired by the town to protect it, then that sheriff then selects deputies to assist him.

Of course in larger towns this sort of concept goes to shit. Stuffing millions of people into a relatively small area has always been a terrible idea, but it's just how things happen. And it destroys most of the justification for things like private police forces and whatnot.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:42 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link]

"What happens around my town is that building corporations come in, buy up a farm on the edge of town, then build a cluster of houses. They build the streets, provide for gas/water/sewage/electricity. (The electricity is provided by another private company working under contract from the state, but the gas/water/sewage, is city provided, but not city built.)"

In many places (like those around where I live), the infrastructure is typically built by the developer, but to specifications negotiated with the city/township/county, and ownership and operation of that infrastructure is passed to the government at completion of development (typically in phases as the development is built out).

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:02 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Well ya. Everythings built to standards.

And usually the small communities are built with a expectation that they'll get absorbed by the city as the city extends it's boundries every decade or so.

Quite often these communities try to resist getting absorbed legally through lawsuites and whatnot once they realise the drop in quality of services and increased costs that are associated with getting absorbed into the larger city. That and the drop in quality of education with the combined increase in cost per child that you get by being tied into a larger school district is one thing that people tend to especially go to arms about.

A few places have successfully resisted, but it's a minority.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:11 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link]

My experience is that there are people who do resist annexation, usually strictly because of taxes. There are also typically people who want to be annexed, usually because they want the enhanced services that the city provides.

Obviously, specific circumstances will affect how people feel. I don't personally know of situations where annexation represented a downgrading of services, but I'm sure they exist. Usually the resisters claim that they don't want the enhanced services (often including better-funded schools, access to park districts and libraries, etc.).

But, again, circumstances vary...

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:54 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Probably you have a better city government. Ours sucks.

Copyright

Posted Dec 15, 2008 0:20 UTC (Mon) by xaoc (guest, #54140) [Link]

>How is it worth money if you can't sell it? I suppose you meant is was worth paying money to create it.

Don't you think software is worth money because it helps getting something done eventhough it cannot be sold for money?

Copyright

Posted Dec 15, 2008 4:44 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

I wasn't actually debating the value of software, which is I assume what
you really mean: "value", not "worth money". I was just trying to be
point out an obvious verbal contradiction.

By definition: something is "not worth money" if you cannot sell it for
money! There is no debating this, it is what you are saying if you say
that you cannot sell it for money.

You probably mean that it has value which is not monetary, make sense?

Copyright

Posted Dec 15, 2008 7:17 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

another way of looking at it is how much would you be willing to pay for software that would give you the equivalent functionality.

something that you cannot sell can be worth quite a bit of money if it would cost a lot of money to replace it.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 13:56 UTC (Fri) by DonDiego (subscriber, #24141) [Link]

Frankly, you're a fucking idiot.
For a moment I feared I had to sit down and take the time to argue against some of your points. Thankfully you've already done a superb job of discrediting yourself and my efforts are no longer needed.

Frankly...

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:25 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I hate to complain, but this is heading into the sort of discussion that I would really rather not see on LWN. We can disagree without being vulgar and insulting. Any chance of reining it in just a little bit?

Copyright

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:51 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

It might (though it probably wouldn't) destroy some of the /industries/ you mentioned, but it's telling that part way through your list you switched from industries to creative products, and then to creators. Truth is, nobody outside of the music industry itself cares about the music industry, and the same for the movie business. People made music before the "labels" and they'll make music after the labels are gone.

Let's take a look at those creators again. Think it through, how does the elimination of a law granting a monopoly on /copying/ prevent people from taking photographs?

Hmm, it doesn't OK, so let's pretend that rather than conjuring up the bogeyman of /all/ photographers being "destroyed" you instead meant to say "the tiny minority of people who make their living entirely through the creation of photographs will no longer be able to do so". Well, suddenly that doesn't sound like a catastrophe any more, but we ought to address it, because you seem a bit unhappy...

Once again, though, the answer is "it doesn't". You can still pay a photographer, and a photographer can still choose or not to do what you tell them in exchange for money ("employment"). The role of the photographer, and their career path is changed, but not eliminated. There is no risk that things will go unphotographed from lack of copyright law, quite the reverse in fact. In the absence of copyright you can take photographs of things for which you'd previously have needed expensive or impossible rights clearances. Creativity is actually expanded.

All that copyright does is create an artificial monopoly. The monopoly isn't for the good of consumers (who can choose to pay for things, or not, in either system) nor for creators (who may get paid for creating, or not, in either system) but for another group, of which you seem to be a member, publishers, who get paid only if there is a monopoly, and who serve no inherent purpose.

That last bit is interesting, when copyright was /invented/ publishers were a relatively new idea, and they appeared to serve a very important purpose. The publisher had capital investment and he used it to make many copies of a work, which was a risk. If the copies sold, he made a profit, and this profit enabled to the publisher to continue to invest in making many copies of other works.

As you may have noticed, making copies of works became effectively zero cost some time between then and now. So did the marginal cost of advertising, shipping, and other factors. Publishers have gone from essential to at best a convenience and at worst a nuisance.

What copyright does in the post-scarcity era of digital information is distort the market. It creates the situation where your "small software company" writes software not because it needs software, and not even because someone else wants the software, but because it hopes, blindly, that lots of people will be willing to pay a small amount for individual copies of the software. And if you're wrong? The company goes to the wall. Copyright has made you a gambler. Without copyright, your company would exist to fill customer contracts, creating the software people want, rather than the software you hope someone might need.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:30 UTC (Fri) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

You can create works for hire with or without copyright. But works for hire are rarely "creative".

Without copyright, original creative works are stifled. There's no incentive, whether monetary or social, in creating original music or art or software that can be taken and distributed under somebody else's name.

Copyright terms should be sensible - perhaps ten years - and software patents should not exist, but copyright itself is too valuable to surrender.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:51 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

This is why, I gather, some european legal systems have the concept of an author's moral right to be identified as such, distinct from copyright and non-transferable. I thought there were some moves to enshrine this in EU law, but don't know the status of that.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:46 UTC (Fri) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link]

The Berne Convention (home to the worldwide scope for protection of my copyrights in your country) identifies the moral right to be known as author. See Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works at Wikipedia.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 11:06 UTC (Fri) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

> Without copyright, original creative works are stifled. There's no
incentive, whether monetary or social, in creating original music or art
or software that can be taken and distributed under somebody else's name.

So I must be mistaken, that having thousands of people yelling your name,
because you are the one on the stage performing your music which they
happen to like is a social incentive. Or the money those people payed for
entry to such a concert would be any monetary incentive.

This must also be the reason why there is no music, art or literature,
that's more than 300 years old, which is the time when copyright was
created. Thank god we have it...

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:33 UTC (Fri) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

You appear to have just awoken from three hundred years of sleep so kindly permit us to update you on some of the developments over the last few centuries. Printing presses are much more common and much faster and there are new and amazing technologies such as color copiers, DVD burners, and computers.

Bands can make a few hundred dollars per concert when their promotion consists solely of free downloads by their existing fans. Bands can make a few hundred dollars per head at a concert when they are aggressively promoted through copyrighted materials. The choice belongs to the bands, not the anti-copyright parasites, which is as it should be.

Similarly software authors can choose how to license their creations, whether GPL or BSD or something nasty they made up after reading the first chapter of a law book. The choice belongs to the software authors, not the anti-copyright parasites, which is as it should be.

Without copyright their would be no shareware and no GPL, and far fewer people would become FLOSS authors for the honor of seeing their creations make fortunes for Bill Gates and nothing for them.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:53 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Think it through, how does the elimination of a law granting a monopoly on /copying/ prevent people from taking photographs?

Of course it does not. But what incentive is there to become a professional photographer? You spend thousands on education, tens of thousands on equipment, and you take an amazing photo... which anyone is then free to reproduce and even sell without compensating you.

People made music before the "labels" and they'll make music after the labels are gone.

I don't care about labels. But without copyright, there would be almost no way to make money as a musician. You'd sell one CD, and that would be the end of it. Anyone else could copy and sell it without repercussions.

All that copyright does is create an artificial monopoly.

Yes, of course! Because the framers of copyright law wisely realized that a limited, time-limited monopoly was a huge incentive to encourage the creation of new works. Copyright law can provide a benefit to society. The fact that current copyright law sometimes does not is no reason to advocate throwing the whole thing out.

What copyright does in the post-scarcity era of digital information is distort the market. It creates the situation where your "small software company" writes software not because it needs software, and not even because someone else wants the software, but because it hopes, blindly, that lots of people will be willing to pay a small amount for individual copies of the software. And if you're wrong? The company goes to the wall. Copyright has made you a gambler. Without copyright, your company would exist to fill customer contracts, creating the software people want, rather than the software you hope someone might need.

Have you ever actually run a software company? I've been running one for nine years. Initially, every single one of our products was GPLd, and we survived on support contracts and development contracts. This did not scale. Creating a proprietary product has enabled us to increase our revenues and staff size by a factor of 10. It has enabled me to employ some really great developers who spend part of their time developing free software. And it has enabled us to produce a really nice product that (frankly) could never have happened under a Free Software development model. Before I started the proprietary product, I even *asked* on the mailing list for its GPL'd core if anyone would sponsor the new product (which I then would GPL.) No-one was willing to spend the money.

The fact is that copyright law permitted us to reduce the cost of production to the point where development of the product was feasible. Without copyright law, we'd be out of business and several talented FOSS developers would be out of work.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 18:23 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

What's the incentive? And here's you supposedly running a company. Come on dskoll, if you're not lying about your business experience then you already know lesson #1 it's not about the money. No matter how much they pay, boring firms don't attract superstar programmers, it's not about the money. Wasn't before copyright, won't be afterwards. No, the incentive isn't money, the monetary compensation just keeps body and soul together.

The way it actually works for the vast majority of actual professional photographers is that they get compensated (or least the deal is made) up front, and the amazing photo comes afterwards. The most notable exception are the paparazzi, but (a) are you really putting paps in the list of good things about copyright? most of them hate the job, and they're the ones doing it (b) even with copyright the paps get ripped off all the time by newspapers and magazines. They might actually be better off without it (c) there are a lot of failed paps. It's back to the gambling I mentioned already.

And then there's musicians. Once again, it's not about the money. Very few people "make it big" and those who do will usually still end up penniless because copyright doesn't protect them, it protects the guy with the lawyers whose contract they had to sign to "make it big". The KLF wrote a book about how to have a hit single. You're thinking "free money" right? Wrong. The book explicitly warns you that having a hit single will lose you money. I know a dozen or more people who've been in a "real band" and they all had day jobs, because it doesn't pay. If you're /really/ good and you make it into a real job, where you get up and write songs, and practice and then go play songs live for an audience, then you can make a good living. But then you're not affected by copyright - bands that do this make most of their income from live performance. Typical professional musicians though aren't in a band. They get paid as work-for-hire, and so once again, copyright doesn't apply. Similarly, most composers aren't writing music in the hope that hundreds of people will buy the score and pay $50 each, they're writing it under contract "Intro to radio quiz show, upbeat and quirky".

You seem very confident that the monopoly has helped in some meaningful way. Actual studies are much less certain. Looking at the US for example, the US used to be a "pirate nation", it didn't observe copyright so that its citizens could get rich printing books written by Englishmen without paying royalties. Proponents of copyright said, as you are saying, that it would power an explosive increase in creativity because of the new incentive. They got their way but we don't really see the promised new creativity in the historical record. Quickly this argument was waved aside, in favour of the argument that the term of copyright needed to be increased in order to ensure the incentive was retained. And that's the same argument still being made today with copyright already essentially perpetual. "Longer terms, we must have longer terms" say the publishers. The creators are of course long dead.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:06 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

What's the incentive? And here's you supposedly running a company. Come on dskoll, if you're not lying about your business experience then you already know lesson #1 it's not about the money.

I run Roaring Penguin Software. Absolutely, starting Roaring Penguin was not initially about the money. Now that I have employees and have to meet payroll, it's quite a bit about the money.

No, the incentive isn't money, the monetary compensation just keeps body and soul together.

Without copyright protection, I would have no money to pay my employees. It's that simple.

The way it actually works for the vast majority of actual professional photographers is that they get compensated (or least the deal is made) up front, and the amazing photo comes afterwards.

Please ask a professional photographer for comments on your idea to abolish copyright. Then get back to us.

And then there's musicians. Once again, it's not about the money.

Please ask a professional musician for comments on your idea to abolish copyright. Then get back to us. (It's true that very, very few musicians make it big. But quite a number make a decent living selling their own CDs and music, and a vast number wouldn't get into the business if it weren't for the possibility of making it.)

Please note: I'm not saying that copyright law as it stands now is perfect. All I'm saying is that throwing it out rather than trying to reform it is a bad idea.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:23 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

If your logic were correct, the existence of free software and free content such as linux, wikipedia... would have already destroyed many of the industries that you mention. Since we can see that is not the case, you must be overestimating something, or just plain wrong. :)

Would it alter those industries? No doubt. For certain many of those alterations would be for the better. Would there be some losses? Probably, most would pale compared to the benefits. Unjust laws are unjust laws whether they have good or bad consequences. Regulating the abstract is unjust no matter what fancy names or noble goals you assign to it.

Physical property, i.e. property that is unreplicatable, needs to be regulated one way or another, whether you believe in personal property (I will claim everyone does), or communal property only. So any laws applied to physical property at least have a solid ground to justify their existence, with or without a government. The lack of regulation of physical property (with or without) government leads to obvious continual conflict.

If however, physical property could be replicated, it would be insane to think that it should therefore still be regulated. Why should I not be able to replicate my universe without you or anyone else in it? :) On what ethical grounds could anyone stand to prevent such a thing if it were possible? Religious ones only most likely.

What extra constraints do abstract replicatable things have over imaginary replicatable physical property that somehow mysteriously makes it merit regulation then? I will claim none. Unlike physical property, abstract things cannot be regulated without governments, it is unnatural. Imagine the dog claiming ownership to the idea of hunting in packs? Preposterous! But dogs certainly know who owns the meal they just caught. And if they caught it together they even know under what agreement, the alpha dog will get to eat first. No government intervention required, regulation of physical property is natural, even non humans do it.

Regulating abstract "property" on the other hand, is very unnatural.

I still remember as a child having been first introduced to copyright (and seeing others introduced to it), it was very strange! It was hard to accept that something might be morally wrong with sharing. I think the evidence today shows that most people still don't accept it to be morally wrong to share, even if they accept the need for the laws against it pushed on them from above!

I dread the thought of my children having to distort their minds to attempt to comprehend such an injustice when they become old enough. However, I have no problem with my daughter telling my son that a doll is hers (if it is). I do not cringe when she does, it is natural and healthy. I will not be upset if she resists him taking it physically. But certainly I am delighted when she shares it with him (on her own).

But if my son were to tell a friend (when he gets older) that his friend cannot hop skip and jump the same way he does or he will beat him up, naturally I would be upset (no matter how creative or unique his hop skip and jump is!) Copyright and patents only do the same. Why do they get so much respect simply because they purport to have some "noble" and unprovable goal to them: "to further promote useful arts and innovation", blah blah blah, or in your case, support industries that would be destroyed without them?

Yet, these laws do so much harm that is provable! Real harm, that each one of us can feel every time we want to share music or videos with our friends. Or, reuse a building block as software engineers. Or, the slightly more distant but still real harm of preventing drugs from being sold cheaply to people dying. This music can, undeniably, be copied at little cost, unlike the weak presumption that they would not have been created without the copyright reward. These drugs often do not cost much to manufacture, an undebatable fact, unlike the other weak presumption that they would not have been created without the patent reward. As for the software building blocks, I do not think that I need to elaborate on that one here.

Preventing us from sharing!!! How can we be so hypocritically constantly scolding our children with the words "share" and then telling them that they may not share the things that they could share so easily, abstract ideas, words, sounds!! Does sharing not hold any value if it does not entail sacrifice? Obsurd! Abolish anti-sharing laws now! :)

It is a crime that wild speculation over "potential innovation" can reduce people's freedoms. I don't believe those speculations one bit, quite to the contrary. By definition these laws restrict innovation! They prevent new ideas from being used by others, they freeze innovation in time since it cannot be expanded upon freely. That is a real consequence, no speculation required.

These laws are nothing more than protectionist laws. They ensure that whomever runs an industry today will run the industry tomorrow. The first comer has a natural advantage in any market, he does not need protection! If anything, the newcomers, the actual potential innovators do. The establishment does not need to innovate to maintain dominance, it only needs to prevent innovation. It is quite clear why these laws exists. Want to encourage innovation, remove these laws so that the establishment will continue to need to innovate to stay ahead. Believe me, I will not shed any tears if it destroys a protected industry, even one I work in (but fear not, it won't.) :)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:06 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

why would a publisher pay a writer if their competitor could wait for them to publish a book, buy one copy, and flood the market with copies?

you could argue that the head start the first publisher has would protect him, but if the second publisher has better marketing or distribution channels that would not be the case.

digital copies may be effectively free, but the work to generate the first copy is not. if you eliminate copyright then the entire cost of creating the work must be recovered by the first sale (because the creator has no reason to believe that they will ever make a second sale)

even in software:

many people do believe that the code they write should be able to be used by anyone for any purpose, those people select BSD licenses.

other people believe that other people should be able to use the software they write, but only if you share your changes.

if you eliminated copyright entirely it would be like making everything be under the BSD license (you may be able to copy something without violating copyright, but if the source isn't published you can't get at it to copy it)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 3:27 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

many people do believe that the code they write should be able to be used by anyone for any purpose, those people select BSD licenses.

That is simply not true. Please explain how I can legally use BSD code after it is compiled and included in some proprietary binary? - I can't. You did say anyone, not just the first person to receive the code.

other people believe that other people should be able to use the software they write, but only if you share your changes.

Many people believe that this requirement is only an ethical requirement to help counteract the evil of copyright. If this were the only thing that copyright provided, I certainly would deem it unethical. It is only because of copyright that the restrictions that the GPL imposes are honorable. It's a little like Robin Hood stealing from the rich, we honor it because he is presumably stealing back what was stolen from the poor in the first place. If the rich however acquired their loot ethically his actions would be dispecable.

if you eliminated copyright entirely it would be like making everything be under the BSD license (you may be able to copy something without violating copyright, but if the source isn't published you can't get at it to copy it)

No, not at all. Without copyright all code would be much closer to the GPL. As mentioned above, with BSD code I may be prohibited from using your code if it is relabeled proprietary. This cannot happen to any code without copyright. The worst that can happen without copyright is code obfuscation and tivoization, but there would be no legal barriers!!! As mentioned in my parent post, this would just lead to better tools to deal with obfuscation and tivoization making the code effectively GPL. I did forget about tivoization in my parent post, but that is only a GPL3 protection.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 11:13 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link]

Imagine there's no Cisco, it's easy if you try
No RMS behind us, above us only Skype
Imagine all the people
Abandoning copyright

You may say you don't need it
And you're not the only one
I really hope someday some anarchist will write something non-copyrighted but intelligent and immensely popular and widespread about peace, love, tivoization and tolerance like the Bill of Rights, the Magna Carta or a great recipe for chicken tikka or maybe some kernel driver
And the world will live as one

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:49 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link]

"That is simply not true. Please explain how I can legally use BSD code after it is compiled and included in some proprietary binary? - I can't. You did say anyone, not just the first person to receive the code."

Presumably, you can get a copy from wherever the author of the proprietary program did. You have to distinguish between "the code" (the thing the original author wrote and licensed) and "a particular copy or derivative of the code" (which may or may not be available or visible to you).

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:22 UTC (Fri) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

+1^9999

There may be details we could disagree about (in terms of the real implementation of what the law should be), but the main points were very well postulated.

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