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Linux boots on the iPhoneLinux boots on the iPhonePosted Nov 29, 2008 17:22 UTC (Sat) by ssam (subscriber, #46587)Parent article: Linux boots on the iPhone
if you want to run linux on a phone, why make life so difficult for yourself by buying an iPhone. I imagine it is a vast amount of effort to fight around all the locks apple have put in place.
If these hackers could put the same amount of effort into hacking on the openmoko project, they could achieve something far more useful. Instead they are supporting a company that aims to restrict them.
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Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Nov 29, 2008 18:46 UTC (Sat) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]
I agree with your sentiment, but
- The Openmoko phone is 2G while the iPhone is 3G. - The iPhone has a camera. - The iPhone is cheaper, if you're prepared to sign a contract. (On the other hand, if you just want the hardware I think the Openmoko phone is cheaper.) - The iPhone can actually be used as a phone if you "dual boot" into the Apple firmware. I'm under the impression that the Openmoko software stack is barely capable of this at present though of course the position will improve.
No doubt similar comparisons can be made between the iPod Touch and things like the Nokia tablets.
The fact that people are prepared to go to such lengths to modify their iPhones shows how much value they put on the hardware features that it offers. Openmoko (and anyone else) have no choice but to offer the same or preferably better features, if they want to get very far.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Nov 29, 2008 19:29 UTC (Sat) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link] I agree with the sentiments of the original commenter. With the lack of sufficiently open hardware continually hampering Free Software adoption, it makes sense to support projects which intend to provide the community with genuinely open hardware. Of course, people can always make the "captive audience" argument that the iPhone is already out there, which is broadly the same as the claim that giving Windows users Free Software applications is somehow as good as giving them a complete stack of Free Software from the operating system through the desktop to the applications they use, and that people shouldn't try and challenge the economics or the status quo. I can see the merits in subverting the iPhone hardware by putting Linux on it, but apart from potentially figuring out how to make certain chipsets work with Linux (which could be valuable), it doesn't seek to change the fundamental problem that is the scarcity of devices which encourage rather than resist Free Software solutions. The fact that people are prepared to go to such lengths to modify their iPhones shows how much value they put on the hardware features that it offers. Openmoko (and anyone else) have no choice but to offer the same or preferably better features, if they want to get very far. For mass-market adoption, giving people all the most sought-after features might appear to be a necessity, but there are also plenty of people who don't want the most shiny things on their phone or who value the openness more. I'd buy a Neo Freerunner just for the openness aspect because I'm sometimes less than impressed by Sony Ericsson's attempts at user interface engineering. Some people would rather keep their phone and have the bugs fixed than be forced to "upgrade" to another one. A final note about contracts, features and iPhone competitors. Here in Norway the price of an iPhone under contract works out at around $900 for 12 months on a subscription which might not immediately invoke additional costs for fairly normal usage (unlike other iPhone offers), which is pretty expensive for a phone. In addition, there are other phones having better hardware, like the LG KC910, available for less. As for the built-in camera, although there's always a convenience argument for them, I don't think I'd want to "upgrade" to the iPhone's camera even from a budget compact. It's worth questioning the "give the punters what (we think) they want" strategy. In digital photography people bemoan the megapixel race which makes people think that a 14 megapixel compact is better than last year's 9 megapixel one, and let us not forget that the pundits all told us that no-one would buy a cut-down laptop: such people are not always right.
Neo as a phone Posted Nov 29, 2008 20:55 UTC (Sat) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]
FWIW, I use Neo FreeRunner as my only phone, among all the other things I can do with it.
It requires quite a bit of tweaking. If you want a little bit less tweaking, wait for the (supposed) stable release of 2008.12 (the repository name will stay at 2008.8 ("stable" would be better) but the release will be called 2008.12 if it gets released in December). I have all the important fixes manually applied, and they address the main issues, but it'd easier to have those out-of-the-box.
Then again, if tweaking is something you don't really run away from, I'd bet many of you would fall in love with Debian running on your phone. It's also usable as a phone with Debian.
Neo as a phone Posted Nov 29, 2008 22:10 UTC (Sat) by ssam (subscriber, #46587) [Link]
when my current nokia 3310 dies i may get a openmoko. but it just keeps on working :-(
Neo as a phone Posted Nov 30, 2008 9:29 UTC (Sun) by SimonKagstrom (subscriber, #49801) [Link]
I've successfully used the washing machine to kill my former phone. Just forget it in your pocket and start washing!
That said, I also have a freerunner. It's great fun and very useful to hack on, but so far I've not started using it as a phone. My main issues with it is that the battery life is too short, no GUI to connect to bluetooth headsets and a general instability (especially when suspending). Personally I'm prepared to wait for the software to stabilize and improve, but I understand people who dismiss the freerunner for these reasons.
(The phone I washed was the one I got from work. Had to order a new one among great embarrassment)
// Simon
Neo as your only phone Posted Dec 1, 2008 1:15 UTC (Mon) by dps (subscriber, #5725) [Link]
Where I live, in the UK, someone calling your mobile phone is free. You have to be very desperate or in bad position not have a fixed line phone too. I need a mobile number to get a job but then I have got a PhD :-) Understanding some mathematics[*] did matter and my life time experiences did not.
The cheapest mobile phone is 10p/min to landlines and the same network and fixed lines, and more elsewhere. Fixed line phones are much cheaper and the rates are more like 1p/min and free at weekends, which is a better deal even after you include line rental.
3G which is cheaper to use that 2G but much more expensive to call. You can only get a 3G phone at sensible price with an expensive contract which carries very high commission. Even with the cheapest pay as you go deal the handset is subsidised.
Having seen the phone salesmen's price sheets I know expensive contracts have commission in the £100-£300 range ($150 to $450). This pays for quite a fancy phone with some room to spare.
The cheapest the high street offered me was £40 ($60) for a phone tied to a network. An unrestricted version that model costs them only £20 ($30). The profit margin here is clearly significantly more than 100%.
A decent fixed line phone, with no contract, costs under £10 ($15).
Most phones can be untied, or bought tied to a network of your choice. Apple invited bids for the privilege of supporting iPhone users, and it is probably almost impossible to use any other network. (Hacking your phone could invalidate its license to use regulated mobile phone frequencies,)
[*] Many people think they understand the mathematics I used but actually dont. When the mathematics is used in anger the difference becomes obvious.
status quo Posted Nov 30, 2008 10:03 UTC (Sun) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]
The iPhone has been supporting 3G just in the newest generation and adding a camera
to a phone costs just a few Euros. So both points could easily change in the next generation of Openmoko phones. Especially if development accelerates through gaining new and obviously quite capable hackers.
Resource Allocation Fallacy and Mis-interpretation of Purpose Posted Nov 30, 2008 7:10 UTC (Sun) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]
This comment exhibits two fallacies.
"if you want to run linux on a phone"[sic] ... assumes a goal (on the part of the developers). What if the goal of these developers is to demonstrate that they are up to the challenge presented by Apple ... to show that some people will overcome the deliberate impediments to alternatives that companies like Apple place in their way? Putting their effort into a more open platform wouldn't serve that purpose at all.
The other fallacy is one we commonly hear in the open source is that the time some (usually smaller) group of people spends on some alternative project (whichever project the commentator thinks of as unworthy of the effort) is somehow "wasted."
This has always boomed with the arrogance of ignorance to me. Who are these people, on the sidelines, to declare how anyone else should use (or "waste") their time.
JimD
Resource Allocation Fallacy and Mis-interpretation of Purpose Posted Nov 30, 2008 16:15 UTC (Sun) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link]
Well said. It is as if coding is a zero sum game, where people can only work on one thing at a time. The same criticism has been leveled against people that code (and run) Linux on non-x86 platforms.
The OpenWRT project, the NSLU2-Linux project, and others have created immensely useful work. Because of the latter, I have a completely fanless machine that runs all kinds of services that was had for less than $40.
There are plenty of other examples.
Resource Allocation Fallacy and Mis-interpretation of Purpose Posted Nov 30, 2008 22:10 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Well, technically you can't actually work on more than one thing at the
same actual instant.
However, the argument is still fallacious: nobody complains because
Resource Allocation Fallacy and Mis-interpretation of Purpose Posted Dec 1, 2008 19:17 UTC (Mon) by RobertBrockway (guest, #48927) [Link]
Some very good comments. It is their time and they may spend it how they wish. Some other important points:
1. They may learn something from the apparently pointless task that they may not have otherwise learnt. These new found skills may be useful in other projects.
2. Code they develop may well help other projects solve problems too. Not all code on a closed platform is going to pertain to closed interfaces.
3. Humans actually perform _better_ if they take a break from their regular tasks. Going on holiday is good for you, and working on a side project can be a good diversion too.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Nov 30, 2008 16:42 UTC (Sun) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]
"If these hackers could put the same amount of effort into hacking on the openmoko project, they could achieve something far more useful. Instead they are supporting a company that aims to restrict them."
Yeah, but hardware-wise OpenMoko is crap when compared to the iPhone. It's big, it's bulky, it has design-flaws (recessed screen on a touchscreen-device??)...
Yes, the phone is open and all, but that openness hasn't seem to delivered any tangible benefits so far. the iPhone, with it's closed-source software and all still seems to be more functional and usable device.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Nov 30, 2008 19:52 UTC (Sun) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]
I've found FreeRunner is nicer shaped in practice than the rather rectangular iPhone. The FreeRunner also feels nicer material-wise than the too "cold" iPhone. And you can't really _do_ anything with iPhone, like upload music to it (I don't have Windows or Mac OS), or use Debian on it... So it depends of quite a lot of things.
The openness has delivered the tangible benefit that there are no restrictions on how the user is allowed to use the device. If one doesn't value that benefit, then of course it doesn't matter.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Nov 30, 2008 23:36 UTC (Sun) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] And you can't really _do_ anything with iPhone, like upload music to it (I don't have Windows or Mac OS), or use Debian on it... I hear that people have got Linux booting on the iPhone...
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Dec 1, 2008 6:09 UTC (Mon) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]
"And you can't really _do_ anything with iPhone, like upload music to it (I don't have Windows or Mac OS), or use Debian on it... So it depends of quite a lot of things."
I would say that about 99.99% of people who have bought an iPhone are perfectly capable of uploading music in to it, so claiming that "you can't upload music in to it" is wrong. I don't have an iPhone, but I do have an iPod touch, and I have zero issues with uploading music in to it.
I can understand the dislike for the iPhone if you use a computer that is not supported. But IIRC, at least Amarok-devels are working on supporting iPhone/so that particular problem could also be fixed.
"The openness has delivered the tangible benefit that there are no restrictions on how the user is allowed to use the device."
And then people would look that does it have something like cover-flow (no), can you remote-control your media-center with it (no), can you use the device as a mouse (no).... and then they start to wonder that what benefits has that openness brought to the table so far. And most phones out there, even closed-source ones, do not place limitations on the user. So it's not like that lack of restrictions is a unique featre that only Openmoko has.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Dec 1, 2008 7:54 UTC (Mon) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]
Of course I assumed that we're on LWN, and it's needless to say that I know ca. 95% are using Mac OS or Windows so they can upload music to the phone. I just pointed out it depends on some factors, like whether you're using those OSs or not, or of course if you're willing to install iTunes or not.
Regarding Amarok developers and others, and your iPod Touch, the ability to upload music to the Apple devices depends on whether the lock-down system has been overridden or not, and Apple just closed down ipodhash for trying to make Ipod Touch / iPhone using software 2.0 usable for Linux users. So at least I wouldn't depend on a feature that the vendor actually tries to close down with all the powers they have.
Regarding your listed features, you can actually remote-control your media-center with it (ReMoko for example), and can use the device as a "Bluetooth mouse".
I'm surprised at the amount of people on LWN who concentrate on just the what-the-user-gets-now instead of the benefits of actual freedom of usage instead of vendor lock-in. We're not really talking about what the user gets now even when talking about Linux booting on the iPhone.
I do hope the mentioned "people" actually start demanding on the freedoms, but Openmoko phone products are not even products yet really. However, it will always be the most demanding, most aware people who actually start demanding better, eg. more free, products, and the masses are happy if they just get the cover flow.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Dec 1, 2008 8:51 UTC (Mon) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]
(the latter people referral is to the last paragraph of previous message, ie. the general public)
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Dec 1, 2008 12:32 UTC (Mon) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]
"Regarding Amarok developers and others, and your iPod Touch, the ability to upload music to the Apple devices depends on whether the lock-down system has been overridden or not,"
If you insist on using anything but iTunes, sure.
"Regarding your listed features, you can actually remote-control your media-center with it (ReMoko for example), and can use the device as a "Bluetooth mouse""
I just checked the Remoko-video (I didn't know that Freerunner uses a stylus. yuch), and it seems like it's more about remote-controlling a computer, as opposed to being a straightforward media-remote. There's a world of difference between the two.
"I'm surprised at the amount of people on LWN who concentrate on just the what-the-user-gets-now instead of the benefits of actual freedom of usage instead of vendor lock-in."
What do yuo expect to tell people when they ask you "so, what's in it for me?"?. Do you tell them that "at some point in the future, you might get a benefit A, B, and C"?. At that point they would tell you that "I already have those benefits in my phone".
Besides, running Linux on the iPhone is all about removing that vendor lock-in.
I'm actually thinking of getting my wife an iPhone. Why? Because it's simple and powerful device. Openmoko might be even more powerful, but it's nowhere near as elegant or usable. And that's the problem with phones these days. they have more features you could ever dream of having, but they are so hard to use and access that people don't use them. That's one thing the iPhone got absolutely right. It might not have as many raw features as hi-end Nokia phone (for example), but the features that are there are so easy to access that people actually use them.
"However, it will always be the most demanding, most aware people who actually start demanding better, eg. more free, products, and the masses are happy if they just get the cover flow."
People should demand products that help them do the things they want to see get done. If those needs can be satisfied with an "open" phone, great! But as things are right now, they are not. So why exactly shouldn't they get an iPhone (for example) that does let the carry out those tasks at this very moment?
Just because something is "free" does not mean that it's automatically better. If user wants feature X, and iPhone has it, but Openmoko does not, is Openmoko still "better" as far as that user is concerned? No it's not. People don't care about ideology, they care about that they can do. Sure, you can tell them that "but this is free software", and he would say "but this other phone has feature X, while this free phone does not....". If you then tell him that "this free phone could have that feature in the future", he would shrug his shoulders and say "but I can have that feature right now on this other phone".
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Dec 1, 2008 12:53 UTC (Mon) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]
"If you insist on using anything but iTunes, sure."
We _were_ talking about Amarok and other stuff available on Linux. We are not discussing on whether iPhone can be used on Windows or Mac OS.
""I'm surprised at the amount of people on LWN who concentrate on just the what-the-user-gets-now instead of the benefits of actual freedom of usage instead of vendor lock-in."
What do yuo expect to tell people when they ask you "so, what's in it for me?"?"
Like I said, this is LWN, Linux Weekly News. The point was that I was assuming people reading LWN actually use Linux, where there's no choice of being able to choose a device you cannot interact with from Linux. Also it'd be natural also not to choose a device which currently works in Linux, if the vendor actively tries to prevent it like Apple does.
For the question, the answer is "independence from what the vendor allows or not allows you to do". It's a bit same as "it pollutes a little less", ie. possibly an intangible value that the customer may or may not care about, and which requires a bit of trust that it's better that way.
I forgot to answer one more point in your previous post:
They do. I don't claim they are restrictions your average Joe might care of immediately, but there are always restrictions in basically all other phones besides Openmoko. The vendors always allow some stuff, while not allowing some other stuff. Apple's grip of the application store is one example, while the other example is of course that most phone manufacturers do not support open media formats like Ogg, which means it's difficult or impossible to get one's music collection to play on those phones. Sometimes also access to specific APIs is restricted, and at least in the end the kernel and hardware support is limited by the closed source software that cannot be changes.
Try eg. attaching a generic web camera or digital TV stick into some random phone's mini-USB port. What are the chances of ever getting it to work on some other phone besides Openmoko products?
Restrictive Hardware Posted Dec 1, 2008 14:22 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link] And most phones out there, even closed-source ones, do not place limitations on the user.They do. I don't claim they are restrictions your average Joe might care of immediately, but there are always restrictions in basically all other phones besides Openmoko. The vendors always allow some stuff, while not allowing some other stuff. Indeed. Anyone claiming that phones sold to end-users don't have restrictions (possibly while advocating "cheap" deals involving contracts) is in fantasy land. A friend of mine couldn't transfer his pictures via IR or Bluetooth from his phone to his computer, in contrast to my phone. The difference? His phone was bought on a contract and it was Nokia and Netcom who had decided that to get your pictures you had to send them all via MMS. In other countries it's a lot worse since the stupid operators want to brand the whole experience. A lot of this is about having a reliable source for the hardware on which you intend to run Linux. The whole "anything but Apple on Apple" scene is a cat-and-mouse game where the next revision of the hardware will probably necessitate more cracks to break the newly added locks and barriers. In contrast, the Openmoko-related hardware is a lot more attractive to independent companies wanting to use it as a platform (and there's at least one doing so successfully), precisely because there's cooperation between the vendor and the users/community. In short, being able to run Linux on the iPhone/iPod and other closed devices is a good thing because it gives existing users options, but it's not the magic solution for getting *open* Linux solutions on mobile hardware, nor is it an adequate substitute for truly open hardware, despite what some people might have us believe.
Linux boots on the iPhone Posted Dec 1, 2008 18:01 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
quote:
I'm surprised at the amount of people on LWN who concentrate on just the what-the-user-gets-now instead of the benefits of actual freedom of usage instead of vendor lock-in. We're not really talking about what the user gets now even when talking about Linux booting on the iPhone.
opensource takes off once a produce becomes 'useable' and people start using and improving it.
until something hits the 'usable' threshold it's only used by tinkerers.
exactly what the 'usable' threshold is varies from person to person, but most people will not be willing to put up with significant problems for the tools that they need to use to do their real work.
nowdays a cell phone is a critial tool, the requirements for stability and reliability are extremely high.
closed source phones 'just work' (as phones anyway, they may have headaches for other uses), and Apple has done a good job of making the iphone 'just work' for many of the other uses as well.
openmoko has lots of neat features, but in the 'just works as a phone' category, it's still lacking (although another poster said that the 'next release' is expected to fix many of these problems). as such it's not a realistic choice for anyone who actually needs a phone for daily use.
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