Patent hassles for OpenMoko

[Posted November 16, 2008 by corbet]

On November 12, the OpenMoko project announced that all of its system images had been removed from the download server. When users asked about what was going on, the answer that came back was: "The short story is that we are in a protracted battle with some patent trolls. Google for Sisvel. In order to get ourselves in a stronger position, we want to make sure no copies/instances/whatever of patent-infested technologies like MP2 and MP3 exist on our servers. Our phones never shipped with end-user MP3 playback features, but we want to use this opportunity to make sure it's not even in some remote place somewhere." The OpenMoko project did not need to run into this particular hassle.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 0:13 UTC (Mon) by oever (guest, #987) [Link] (7 responses)

Excuse me, but I'm confused by this sentence: "The OpenMoko project did not need to run into this particular hassle.". Are you suggesting "this particular hassle" could have been avoided somehow?

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 6:20 UTC (Mon) by ctg (guest, #3459) [Link] (3 responses)

No, it's just a figure of speech. A bit like the idiom "I needed this like a hole in the head". Meaning that "need == 0".

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 16:01 UTC (Mon) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link] (1 responses)

However, I have to say I read the sentence twice, thinking Jon had posted the story before it was complete, before I realized it was meant to be read that way...

Didn't need that hassle

Posted Nov 17, 2008 21:27 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

It was meant to be read that way. However, if I would hold off on posting news for, say, 24 hours after flying across an ocean, I might be more successful in meaning to say things that create less confusion among my readers... I'll work on that.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 21, 2008 19:33 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

No, it's just a figure of speech. A bit like the idiom "I needed this like a hole in the head". Meaning that "need == 0".

Actually, it's a rhetorical way of saying "need < 0," as is clear from the hole in the head analogy.

The point is that the project needs, to some extent, not to have this hassle.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 9:45 UTC (Mon) by wingo (guest, #26929) [Link]

Another possible interpretation would be that OpenMoko could have avoided this by not producing images with MP2/MP3 codecs in them.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 10:06 UTC (Mon) by pharm (guest, #22305) [Link] (1 responses)

As I understand things, the OpenMoko phones don't ship with MP2/3 playback in the code, but they
had an MP3 logo on the outside of the box for some reason (perhaps this functionality was planned
at some point in the past?). There's a company in Germany who makes their money by holding up
anything with mp3 on it at the border and demanding payment to license patents that they claim
covers any mp3 decoding in order to release the shipment: if the importer doesn't pay up, the
customs holdings charges will rapidly destroy any profits they stand to make, so they don't have a
great deal of choice.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 16:21 UTC (Mon) by macc (guest, #510) [Link]

Neither the black box nor the green banderole
has any MP3 (like) markings. Just looked ;-)

As shipped:
There was one mp3 file on the fs
( duplicate of one of the desktop *wav files )
and could not be used anyway, no player

macc

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 0:47 UTC (Mon) by ebrake (guest, #54777) [Link] (7 responses)

I read the comment as simply saying this legal is battle is unnecessary and wasteful of resources.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 10:55 UTC (Mon) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link] (6 responses)

Given the change of POTUS, I wonder whether we dare look forward to meaningful reform of software patents. Anyone know of Obama's views on software patents?

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 11:10 UTC (Mon) by MathFox (guest, #6104) [Link] (3 responses)

Sisvel is an Italian "patent enforcer", mainly active in Europe. In this case it is more likely the EPO and/or EUropean authorities who are to blame.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 11:26 UTC (Mon) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link] (2 responses)

Ahh, I'm really not trying to apportion blame here. I was thinking more that if Obama forces through reform of software patents, it would be difficult for the EUP/EC to not adopt similar reforms, especially in these times of economic difficulties - the argument that patents stifle development and that non-patent ridden countries are more attractive to software development investment will, I would hope, be compelling enough.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 12:04 UTC (Mon) by MathFox (guest, #6104) [Link] (1 responses)

Agreed. Personally I feel that stopping software patents in Europe helped to spark the recent reforms in the US. Unfortunately, the MP3 patents are pretty old and IMO of better quality (in the disclosure) and more specificity than the average software patent.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 12:42 UTC (Mon) by kirkengaard (guest, #15022) [Link]

Yes. If there is such a thing as a "good" software patent, i.e. one that is properly documented, strictly defined, and describes precisely what it covers in the patent material, Fraunhofer may well be in the running for that qualification. Good patent by patent standards, not by software standards. At least part of the problem here is that it was far more hardware-specific a problem when the team that developed what became layer 3 did their work. We're talking a patent on a design encoded into DSP chips, plus the output format. At that time, it was easier to see as a patentable issue, and not as math. My guess is, nobody figured on the output format becoming the money maker.

Obama's Views

Posted Nov 17, 2008 18:30 UTC (Mon) by ccyoung (guest, #16340) [Link]

this is a good start:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/17/11302/899/10...

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 26, 2008 2:19 UTC (Wed) by kingdon (guest, #4526) [Link]

Maybe someone else has been paying closer attention than I, but one clue is at http://change.gov/agenda/technology_agenda/:

Reform the Patent System: Ensure that our patent laws protect legitimate rights while not stifling innovation and collaboration. Give the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO) the resources to improve patent quality and open up the patent process to citizen review to help foster an environment that encourages innovation. Reduce uncertainty and wasteful litigation that is currently a significant drag on innovation.

To make sense of this, you probably need to have been following things like http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/05/patent-reform-act-st...

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 17, 2008 16:47 UTC (Mon) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't really understand what is accomplished by removing system images from their download servers. Are they unaware of what they are serving? Wiping your servers and then saying "We're not infringing your patent" doesn't make you look too good.

Patent hassles for OpenMoko

Posted Nov 19, 2008 10:27 UTC (Wed) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link]

I doubt they removed the software to try and hide a supposed infringement. Sisvel would have ample evidence that the given software was available at a given date.

More likely this was to prevent Sisvel from claiming that they knowingly infringed the patent after the initial cease and desist notice. This makes it much less likely that the judge will grant a preliminary injunction against OpenMoko, which could shut them down completely for the duration of the trial.

Ogg

Posted Nov 18, 2008 14:55 UTC (Tue) by morhippo (guest, #334) [Link] (3 responses)

This is why we should all use ogg, exclusively. Not only better technically, but less likely to encounter difficulties from patent holders.

Apple is losing sales (from me and and my girlfriend), because no iPod can play an ogg file.

Ogg

Posted Nov 18, 2008 15:16 UTC (Tue) by svena (guest, #20177) [Link] (2 responses)

At least not without Rockbox... :)

Ogg

Posted Nov 18, 2008 16:08 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

Rockbox doesn't work with any iPod presently on sale :( it works
wonderfully on my iPod Video (all I lose is the dedicated-hardware video
playback which I wasn't going to use anyway, and I gain lots of nifty
features and extra battery life). But it doesn't work for people buying
new stuff *now*.

Ogg

Posted Nov 19, 2008 8:27 UTC (Wed) by MKesper (subscriber, #38539) [Link]

I'm waiting for the day when players you can buy will come preloaded with RockBox. :)

MP2 patents?

Posted Nov 28, 2008 17:14 UTC (Fri) by jrincayc (guest, #29129) [Link]

I am curious what patents Sisvel thinks it owns on MPEG 1 Audio Layer 2 (MP2). After all, it is surprisingly similar to MASCAM, which was publicly documented in "Low bit-rate coding of high-quality audio signals. An introduction to the MASCAM system" by G. Thiele, G. Stoll and M. Link, published in EBU Technical Review, no. 230, pp. 158-181, August 1988. This should be old enough that most patents on MP2 should be expired.