Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews) [LWN.net]

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 1:51 UTC (Sat) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

Smolt is opt-in (it doesn't run by default on Fedora), and it doesn't require anything beyond the running of a command.

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 1:59 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Smolt is completely free and open source (both client *and* server) is not tied to any proprietary tool or service. It is cross distribution, anonymous, opt-in hardware profiler developed and used by Fedora from Fedora 7 onwards.

It is available in EPEL repository (for RHEL, CentOS or other rebuilds) and OpenSUSE repository and will be integrated by default in the next OpenSUSE release. Other distros like Ubuntu (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/4474/), Debian (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=435058) and Mandriva are very well aware of it and can choose to take advantage of it anytime they want just like OpenSUSE already has.

http://smolts.org is a neutral location for the stats. The complete source under GPL is available at http://fedorahosted.org/smolt

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 8:39 UTC (Sat) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link]

What's this tool in Ubuntu ? popcon or something else ?

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 16:42 UTC (Sat) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link]

> What's this tool in Ubuntu ? popcon or something else ?

I'm not sure of the specific name. On my Ubuntu desktop I go to System->Administration->Hardware Testing and that starts the tool.

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 9:26 UTC (Sat) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link]

I have not used Ubuntu's hardware testing tool, like I have not used smolt.

But just out of curiosity: what is the problem with signing in to "a service called Launchpad" before submitting your data? I am asking, of course, because you just did something quite similar by posting here.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 8, 2008 11:14 UTC (Sat) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link]

The questions are "who gains from this?" and "Is it worth the hassle?".

In the case of LWN.net, I feel that I benefit most from having an account - I get early access to a high quality Linux news source, and the chance to join in with some high quality discussions (I ignore the low- without an account for some time, so it slowly sold itself to me; by the time I decided I would benefit from an account, I knew it was worth the hassle involved.

When it comes to getting a Launchpad account, just to tell them what hardware I'm using, the benefits are less clear-cut. The gain for me is marginal - it'll be used to put a little bit more pressure on hardware vendors, but I already put pressure on hardware vendors by making use of my consumer rights to return devices that don't support Linux (Distance Selling Regulations). On top of that, registering is a lot of hassle - I've got to give them my e-mail address, wait for them to e-mail me instructions, remember what this "Launchpad.net" thing is, follow the instructions, then go back to the hardware detection thing and say "count me!". I can't just register in the hardware detection application, and confirm my registration later - or at least, if I can, it's not obvious how I'd do so, or that the registration would tell me why I wanted to confirm it.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 8, 2008 16:43 UTC (Sat) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link]

Odd, I recently joined Launchpad without doing more than giving an email address (one on my site) and going to the Launchpad site to activate my membership. I was shocked at how easy it was to effect. In addition, I encountered no attempt to count my machine.

I did put the site to almost immediate use by posting a bug report that elicited a response and a solution. Furthermore, I intend to ask other questions about Ubuntu's current characteristics. I may too suggest that they be altered in future offerings. Therefore, joining Launchpad was a net gain, even when my machine was not <i>counted*</i>.

I had previously decided not to register as an Ubuntu user, because I thought the data sought was too invasive. Now I prefer Launchpad.

* However, see the post by mmcgrath, the initial developer of smolt, who says that it does not have the properties attributed to it.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 8, 2008 17:42 UTC (Sat) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link]

Yes, but you got a Launchpad account because you had a problem, and wanted help getting it solved - the gain for you was clear, and the hassle (compared to the gain) was low.

Now come at it from the perspective of me trying to get useful statistics on Linux hardware. Imagine that Ubuntu is working perfectly for you, and you've not yet needed to file a bug report. Some dude wants you to tell him what hardware you're running it on, and isn't quite clear on what you're going to gain from this. He'd like you to go to a site you've never used before, sign up, wait for an e-mail reply, follow the instructions in that e-mail reply, and then submit your details. In return, he promises to say "thanks for the help!". Can you not see why this is a huge hassle, compared to the rather amorphous gains?

In that respect, Smolt gets it right - although your immediate gain from running Smolt is tiny if your hardware works well for you, the hassle is tiny, too. Just say "yes, count me", and things Just Work.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 8, 2008 22:23 UTC (Sat) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link]

I thought I made the point clearly that I performed no action other than providing an email address that worked. Moreover, I think you should have paid some attention to the asterisk, where the original developer of smolt makes much weaker claims for his creation.

I suspect too you are simply allergic to Ubuntu (or anything Canonical), hence, I suggest you avoid any contact. However, your prescription should not be presumed to be a universal verity.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 9, 2008 11:04 UTC (Sun) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link]

It's funny. I have a Launchpad account - I use it to report bugs in the distro I use. Yet, because I dare to suggest that creating a Launchpad account just so that Canonical can include you in their count of Linux users is hassle, you accuse me of being anti-Ubuntu!

Just so that you're aware, I ran the Hardware Testing tool on a fresh Ubuntu install before making my post. I used a googlemail.com address when Launchpad asked me for my e-mail address, and had to go through the steps I outlined in my post.

Perhaps it's different if you use a less common e-mail provider, but I described the hassle correctly for someone using one of the big names. I also, if you note, compared it to the hassle of being counted by Smolt (which has its own issues), and pointed out that, on that metric, Smolt gets things right.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 9, 2008 13:15 UTC (Sun) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link]

I will grant you that I too easily jumped to a facile conclusion that you had an adversarial relation with Ubuntu. However, seeing some threads pertaining to Canonical it was too easy a trap to fall into. Moreover, reading your post I was unsure if that was really your experience registering or that was what you expected to happen. Therefore, I am sorry if my words were too critical.

Another issue was, however, the distinct impression that you had not read my post's first paragraph. Had you written something like "this was counter to my experience ..." I might not have been so easily mislead. Finally, despite the impression you might have that I am not an avowed fan of Ubuntu, that is not true. As I mentioned I refused to register as an Ubuntu user for full use of their forums and my joining Launchpad was nearly accidental. Furthermore, I fully expected to ditch Ubuntu 8.04 after a very short experience using 7.10 that was dreadfully bad for my use. If I had the patience, I would go back to Debian testing and unstable for my desktop. But I have too volatile temper to put up with some jerk advising "RTFM" while failing to cite this mythical entity's location and its real merit for answering the question asked. Should I encounter such a jerk in flesh space the result could be dire for one or both of us.

Again my apologies for my too quick presumptions, however, reread your own post and remember some of the vitriolic comment threads (on lwn.net) where Canonical was the topic of the moment to understand how I erred. Yes, I recognize it's not an excuse, but it is an explanation.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 9, 2008 16:54 UTC (Sun) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link]

I find it ironic that you now accuse me of not reading your post, when you went off on a tangent yourself - the topic was explicitly "Getting an account to be counted", and the comparison was between an LWN.net account, and "getting a Launchpad account, just to tell them what hardware I'm using"; I naturally assumed that you were staying on that topic.

From what you're now claiming, it's clear that you assume that any criticism of Canonical is automatically hate, and not intended constructively; I gave (at least) two ways that Canonical's application could be improved:

Allow me to submit my hardware profile anonymously; make it "click and forget".
Reduce the hassle factor of Launchpad account creation for this purpose - collect an e-mail address in the application, submit it with my hardware data, and ensure that the response e-mail tells me why I'm getting this message, and why I want to follow the instructions it gives.

I have reread my own posts, and yours. I don't see how you jumped to your conclusion without deliberately misreading my post, and extending my claim that creating a Launchpad account for the purpose of collecting hardware data is hassle with no obvious gain to a claim that creating a Launchpad account is too much hassle for any of the uses you can put Launchpad to; I can only conclude that you are part of the group of people who sees things as a binary for/against, and that you feel that I am not allowed to criticise constructively, only to mindlessly praise our corporate overlords.

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 9, 2008 21:00 UTC (Sun) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link]

To jump in where I am perhaps not wanted, and to comment from an impression and not a careful reading.

I think you haven't quite got his point yet.

I think he is saying that the way it worked for him is DIFFERENT to the way it worked for you and this led him to think you were guessing at how it would work rather than describing your experience.

He then suggests that had you come back and told him that your description was your actual experience which for some reason did not match his then he might have picked up on this.

He also admits that none of this is an excuse, which to me is an admission that he sees himself as in the wrong, but is just by way of explanation, which to me is a request for you to go a bit easier on him now that he admits to being wrong.

Anyway, enough from me on that.

I have been in the linux counter for years. I am conflicted in my desire to be counted. I end up semi counted and not keeping my machine counts up to date.

all the best,

drew

Getting an account to be counted

Posted Nov 10, 2008 13:37 UTC (Mon) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link]

Drew,

I owe you my belated thanks. Reading his (franz)last message, I had a sense of futility, hence, my thoughts were only on how to walk away from this exchange. That is, either by silence or by a final terse note attempting again to state my experience and intent. However, your summary showed I spoke with sufficient clarity to be understood. I thank you for simply taking the time to restate my message.

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 11:30 UTC (Sat) by quaid (guest, #26101) [Link]

> what is the problem with signing in to "a service called Launchpad" before
> submitting your data? I am asking, of course, because you just did
> something quite similar by posting here.

Not speaking for the person you are quoting, but the common concern about Launchpad is that it is not open source. That is not the case with Smolt (or any other Fedora web service.)

Here's an opportunity to poke Corbet about open sourcing the LWN.net code:

http://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#site

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 8, 2008 16:49 UTC (Sat) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link]

> But just out of curiosity: what is the problem with signing in to "a
> service called Launchpad" before submitting your data? I am asking, of
> course, because you just did something quite similar by posting here.

Because it's more effort than I'm willing to expend to submit the results of a hardware test. I don't need an account at another site. Launchpad also appears to be a site I would never go to. From the looks of it, it appears to be another Sourceforge.net. I don't have a need for that. If I create a log in, then I have to give out an email address, create a password, and then keep track of it. There's management overhead in keeping track of all of that. I get very little or nothing in return.

LWN, on the other hand, offers me much value and I return several times a week to read the site. I get so much value from LWN that not only did I create a login, I even paid money to support the site.

The primary difference is that in the case of LWN, I want something and I'm willing to trade my time and money to get it. With Ubuntu's hardware profiling, they are the ones that want something. I'm happy to help out but they have to lower the barrier to contribution as low as possible for me to help.

Is Smolt the Key to Counting Linux Users? (InternetNews)

Posted Nov 10, 2008 14:38 UTC (Mon) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link]

I'm happy to help out but they have to lower the barrier to contribution as low as possible for me to help.

Fair enough. Personally I don't like the idea of sending out personal data -- whatever it is -- that does not at least require the manual creation of an account.