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Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Jim Gettys, one of the original X Window System programmers (among many other things) has put up a lengthy call to the community to take the lead in the design of desktop software. "Our fundamental advantage we have is the ability to experiment and modify all areas of the stack; from hardware, to the window system, though toolkits to applications. Just as compositing has allowed a thousand flowers to bloom (most of which stink, but we've picked some that smell pretty sweet) in eye candy, accessibility and in other areas, compositing and other modern free software technologies can be used in new an unexpected ways. We are able to perform experiments, and have a large audience to test the experiments radically faster than commercial software."
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Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 4, 2008 23:23 UTC (Tue) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link]

Ahhh, Jim Gettys, the political rival and arch nemesis of Charles Foster Kane. Sorry, couldn't resist; that's the first idea that popped into my mind when I read Jim Gettys' name above. And besides, it's voting day here in the USA.

Seriously, though, I kind of disagree with jg's comment that the free desktop is "playing catch-up" to Windows and Mac. A lot of UI and application development work has gone into X11, GNOME, and KDE in the past several years--and I don't see this merely as an attempt to mirror features of Windows or Mac OS. I do agree with jg that a more aggressive push is needed to get UI and application ideas and code from the academic realm to the users' desktops--and Open-Source is the ideal way to take leadership of this push.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 5:36 UTC (Wed) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

If Gettys' brainchild fails, you get to see getty :-)

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 2:36 UTC (Wed) by jhs (guest, #12429) [Link]

This is a good time to talk about this. Windows 7 is right around the corner, and it's rumored to have been developed under a much more improved process. It could be one of Microsoft's more compelling releases since quite some time.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 12:35 UTC (Wed) by Felix.Braun (subscriber, #3032) [Link]

If you want to lead, you should concern yourself less about what others are being up to. Instead the free software community should just strive to build the best desktop possible and ignore Microsoft. This strategy has worked on the kernel side, it's also the right strategy on the desktop.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 15:46 UTC (Wed) by jhs (guest, #12429) [Link]

You keep thinking that, then. Good luck with that.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 16:06 UTC (Wed) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

Yeah, from what I've seen Windows 7 looks like it might be an actual improvement over what has come before. I think they got the message when people stayed away from Vista--and petitioned for the continuance of XP--in large numbers.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 18:38 UTC (Wed) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link]

That's pretty much exactly what Microsoft claimed with Vista, and with XP, 2000, NT and 95 before it.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 22:52 UTC (Wed) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link]

Yeah, right. That's what everyone said about Vista. And XP, and 2K, and 98, and 95, and 3.1, and 3.0, and so on. Before that, it was constant talk about how the next version of MS-DOS would be great and fix all the problems.

It's one thing to be hopeful, but this is Stockholm Syndrome.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 8:33 UTC (Wed) by aseigo (guest, #18394) [Link]

Yes, it is time to lead. Yes, we are the leading edge of research.

But true to form Jim Getty misses the boat: nobody wants to nor needs to rearrange the individual buttons in the calculator. It's a stupid idea, but what else to expect?

When it came to then hot topic (and now floundering) OLPC I asked Jim what follow up research they were doing and his answer was that such research was without value. Press on, without rigor! was the mantra. I recommended that people steer clear of that project due to such "wisdom", the same wisdom we see in this blog entry of his.

Instead. strike out in truly useful, new and pragmatic directions.

I see what the people in the EU funded Nepomuk project have done and think "holy mackeral! this could be HUGE!". I look at what so many are doing in the services and mobile spaces and think, "great steps". I see what the kernel people are striving for and it's impressive.

There is real innovation happening that matters to real people. I hope that those doing it skip over the sort of tripe the blog linked to from this article expounds and continue on their merry way. It's how we got this far, after all..

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 12:07 UTC (Wed) by jordip (guest, #47356) [Link]

The people doesn't seem to understand that the thread for the free desktops is not other desktops but Internet.
Kmail, Akregator are two applications that became irrelevant to me since have the same functionality online. And as browser become faster and the web richer, more and more applications will have an online competition.

Nepomuk and Akonadi are amazing but as much as I like them, today my facebook said "your friend YYY changed her phone number to ZZZ, added to your phone list". Akonadi will eventually be able to do that. Check for ownership of data, use the future social semantic desktop and synchronize.

But will somebody ever buy computers (or other devices) powerful enough to run KDE4 when they can access all their world of interconnected data online? and they just need something that starts and launch Firefox full screen run by a relative cheaper computer? (javascript HW engines?!)

Have OSS finally lost the war? Future's software will be running in some company's server out there leaving us with "just" client players and viewers (browsers, plasmamoids :P )

Have Aseigo bought a bigger monitor now that plasma moved to kdelibs and he needs more Konsole tabs?

Please answer last question first ;)

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 14:22 UTC (Wed) by MKesper (guest, #38539) [Link]

If you use facebook et al, you're not the master of your data. You're lost.
If you want to have your desktop everywhere and care at least one bit about your data, have a look at X2go etc.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 16:12 UTC (Wed) by jordip (guest, #47356) [Link]

I pointed to Facebook as an example most people would know.

The point is that services in the cloud/servers have more information and processing power than our computers have. This can lead to more optimal or new solutions and applications. This lead to more and more desktop applications being superseded by cloud versions. This lead to less interest in developing traditional applications which makes the cloud even more attractive. And renders more applications obsolete.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 18:50 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

As RMS says, the cloud is a trap, it is impossible to be free when someone else controls your computing. The argument about more processing power is bogus. The reason you can use simple access devices is because of connectivity, it's the network, not the CPU. The future is about how to connect, about protocols. Who needs more CPU? We need better and inovative protocols (along with the apps to use them), better inter-connectivity between our data to make cloud computing a less appealing approach luring us to another facebook lock-in.

Something like facebook does not require massive CPU unless you explicitly decide you want a centralized db. There are promising alternative protocols, like FOAF, OpenID, CalDAV, LDAP. We just need to follow through with them more. Where is the simple reliable OpenID implementation for the home user that is not just a sample app for one user? Where are the FOAF apps that allow me to crawl my friends and notice the friends they are linked to and easily add them to my list of friends? How can I get in touch with them using FOAF without them exposing their email to spam? How can I be informed when their address changes? How can I populate my personal LDAP server with my friends info I get from FOAF? How can I enable my friends to update their info in my (and everyone else's) LDAP db themselves easily?

Where are the easy home user, (non-corporate focused) contact (LDAP perhaps) synchronization apps? Why can't I sync my palm pilot/cell phone to an LDAP or other open backend that is not based on a desktop app? Why can't my desktop apps do the same, without using import/export functions which don't really sync?

Now scheduling: why can't I do the same with my calendaring apps? Why can't I have a backend (CalDAV perhaps) which keeps track of my whole family's schedules and syncs (not import/exports) with all of my apps, desktops, phones, and has web access for when I do not have my own phone/desktop with me so that I can use it from an internet cafe? Why can't this calendaring backend federate and conflict resolve my schedules with online calendars from other organizations that I deal with, my soccer team, my wife's baby sitting co-op, and, of course, my work calendar which is on a dreaded outlook server?

Instead, I have a disjoint maze of electronic calendar sources which make using calendar apps a nightmare and traditional paper easier and a relief. On that note, where are the simple calendar apps that can do incremental printing of monthly calendars? In other words, why can't I print out this months calendar so I can hang it on the wall and simply feed the same sheet of paper through my printer whenever it needs to be updated without reprinting everything already on my page or wasting a new sheet of paper?

Simple things that make technology useful, that's where freedom is important and we should lead. Nothing I ask for/describe above is high tech or difficult. It's not some sexy fancy GUI (they help too though), but we do need this integration and it's something that we are often best at in our world. We just need to complete many of the loops that have already been started and we will be infinitely more useful than any online cloud service. Every time we loose to an online cloud service it's because they complete an important link in our loops that we thought was not important, that we undervalued (like keeping track of our friends, not just our coworkers). I mean, look at FOAF, it's a great start, but where are the real tools for it?

Sometimes we undervalue it simply because it is so simple, we simply forget to do it. How many applications that use contacts can access and LDAP db but can't update it (do any)? How many emailers can store contacts, but do not track to see if they've changed with every incoming email (do any)? These are too simple important steps that would have put free software way ahead, but I have yet to see them anywhere!

On a completely non cloud related note, but more related to Getty's article, GUI advancement: it lies not in configurability or more eye candy (which are great also), but in the advancement in keyboard usage!! Yes, that's right, you read that right, make better use of the keyboard. Any command line user knows that the keyboard is much more efficient than a mouse. A mouse is great, but it is just too limiting for so many things. We inherently realize this and, so, of course, we will not give up the keyboard/command line. Sometimes we like to use our keyboard with our GUI, so we add shortcuts to our apps, and these can actually dramatically improve our productivity with GUIs, but only for the most commonly used tasks. Ultimately our GUIs are designed around a mouse with the keyboard added as an afterthought which truly limits their efficiency. Design GUIs with the keyboard in mind first and you will have an efficient GUI, the use of the mouse will just flow from there.

If you can design GUIs for a keyboard then you will revolutionize the desktop. Start with the difficult apps if you have to, take a graphical drawing program such as the gimp or a diagramming program and see if you can make one that is more efficient with a keyboard then with a mouse. If you can, you may be onto something revolutionary.

How many times have you made a diagram easily with a mouse and then just found it too tough to make major adjustments to it later on. If a diagram becomes as easy to adjust as a text file is with a text editor, then you will have improved the GUI dramatically. Imagine you have 10 boxes in a diagram that need to be tweaked. Even with a mouse, current GUIs fall apart with such tasks: double or right click on first object, bring up properties/attributes pop-up, click in appropriate attribute cell, type new value, hit apply to see if it's right, click pop-up close, repeat... Do it once, OK, do it 5 times and curse. Edit five lines in an editor, done. Edit 10 lines in an editor and you probably have an efficient mechanism such as search and replace to do it painlessly! Do this 10 times in the GUI and you are sure to be searching to export your diagram to some text format so that you can edit it with a text editor and then re-import it. If this app were designed for the keyboard it would likely be an easy painless task with a mouse or a keyboard!

Ever try using a web browser without a mouse? Such a basic app cannot handle a keyboard well. It can be done, but it sure is not efficient! No wonder people insist on using a mouse, not because it is better, but because it is catered to by app/GUI toolkit designers. Surely someone can figure out a good way to use a keyboard with GUIs? Maybe it's as simple as starting with a non graphical app that is efficient and adding graphics to it without adding a mouse until it already works well? I am not sure how it can be done, but I am sure that if it is done, that it will lead the desktop.

What a rant! Sorry. :( I hope that my somewhat poor attitude can be overlooked and that my complaints/suggestions may inspire someone to more creativity, or to add that simple hook to complete and important loop. :) As others have pointed out, there is plenty of innovation in free software, we simply don't have a monopoly on it!

Cloud a trap?

Posted Nov 5, 2008 20:31 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

If the cloud is the trap and the open loops as you describe them are the right way forward...who in the open source ecosystem is stepping up to lead us along that open loop path and away from the proprietary cloud?

You know what would be really interesting. It would be really interesting to know more specifics about Shuttleworth's vision of a linux desktop that deeply integrates online aspects.. using "weblications" as he calls them. Is that vision cloud services based.. or does makes use of the open "loops" you are describing? I don't know.

http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Ubuntu_Linux_Looks_to_the_C...

I hope the Developer Summit in December brings more focus on exactly which path Shuttleworth wants to lead desktop linux down with the "weblication" concept. It could very well be that he's thinking along the same lines as you, and is gearing up to help push wide adoption through the application space of protocols like FOAF. Canonical is already starting the integration of OpenID support into its own web services with Launchpad as a provider.

-jef

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 21:55 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

“Where are the FOAF apps that allow me to crawl my friends and notice the friends they are linked to and easily add them to my list of friends? How can I get in touch with them using FOAF without them exposing their email to spam? How can I be informed when their address changes?”

I will choose not to go so far as to say anything about the applications you're looking for here beyond "People are working on that".

But, since it is public, I will point you at a related demo http://foaf.qdos.com/ and particularly the fact that you can flip the relationship mode, that is, you can ask "Who has claimed they know me?" as well as the obvious but less interesting "Who have I said I know?". Both the demo and the underlying technology are completely open, in the sense that they work just as well with FOAF you publish on your own web server as with LiveJournal or whatever service is popular today.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 6, 2008 8:24 UTC (Thu) by jordip (guest, #47356) [Link]

Of course you can do all that.
But you require a computer serving your data connected to Internet.
If you are look for someone's information using FOAF, you need that data be in your computer or available online. So, two options:
- Everyone has a server always connected to Internet which manages everything we are talking about (also our music, etc), able to sync all our devices and to share information with other people servers alike.
- We connect and then start crawling, try to connect at the same time that other friend you need data from, etc.

Or
Companies gives us services (FOAF for instance, songs playlist, etc) and they try their best to have a 24x7 service for everyone. They have data from a lot of people so they can do things like last.fm (find people similar etc) looking in their own DB.

As much as I hate it, I see the online companies as technological winners.

It doesn't matter if they run OSS or no, they have the users ...

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 6, 2008 16:20 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

This is were the IPv4 numberspace and consumer web-only oriented veiw of ISPs suck.

I should have the equivelent of:

Connect home.martinfick.hum
Hello martinfick@home.martinfick.hum

Hi drag@work.drag.hum,
My computer supports jpegExchange, directMsg, directVoip, bittorrent, openID

His session is not active at the moment, will you leave a message?

etc etc.

That's the way to go. All you would need occasionally is a service to locate other users. DNS will probably work ok, but you can probably use something like Jabber to do a ad-hoc IPv6 address locate and service announcement or something like that.

The Internet is fundamentally P2P, but people are so use to the PC-style client-server model it makes P2p seem somewhat alien.

I mean, if his computer is down then you can't ping him. So you can't reach him. That's about it. He isn't around, try again later.

But none of this is going to happen while you have armies of people stuck behind NAT firewalls. (and don't anybody go on about security. You can have one-way access and client-initiated-only sessions even if you have a public ip address if you want. There isn't really any fundamental security advantage of NAT that really matters)

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 6, 2008 9:54 UTC (Thu) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

You're right, one area where Linux really lags in the desktop is keyboard support in the GUI. In Windows it works, albeit slow. In Gnome, unplug the mouse. Now, how do you bring up the applications menu? Or the Gnome menu? That's only the beginning.

And there there's the bug that prevented Win-L from locking the screen because the author of gnome-settings-daemon had decided that certain modifiers simply wern't interesting. It was open for years, I sincerely hope it's fixed in the next release.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 6, 2008 19:31 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> slow. In Gnome, unplug the mouse. Now, how do you bring up the applications menu? Or the Gnome menu? That's only the beginning.

Alt-F1 opens the gnome menu. You can then navigate the "Main menu" using arrow keys.

Using individual application menus is the same as in Windows, which has been used since the ancient 'edit' program in DOS days. The hotkeys are underlined in each menu. So for 'File' the F is underlined. You select alt-f to open that menu up.

So to close out a Gnome application you can use Alt-f, q. Then next to each menu item is the hotkey combo for that function. With a small Gconf edit you can reassign hotkeys to different functions by opening up a menu item, highlighting a function, and then typing a key combo. This is disabled by default for very obvious reasons. So if you want to modify your favorite apps to do 'emacs' style it's customizable.

For changing around the normal Gnome system-wide hotkeys you can go through 'System' --> 'preferences' --> 'keyboard shortcuts'.

For browsers you can go and hit 'F7' for 'caret mode'

All in all you can use keyboard pretty effectively for anything 'Gnome'. Once you start treading away from that, like using Firefox or non-Gnome GTK apps they generally have their own oddities that can be confusing. Especially with a lot of broken copy-n-paste and drag-n-drop functionality that is pretty much a solved problem with 'Gnome' (as opposed to just 'gtk') applications.

For example:

in a newer Gnome environment type something into Gnome terminal. Highlight it, copy it, close out the gnome-terminal. Open up Gedit and then paste it. It will 'just work' as expected.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 6, 2008 21:14 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

So what you have summarized is that: the windowing system (note that I did not say GUI, it might as well be a text base windowing system) and text based applications work well in GNOME (or any other OS/desktop for that matter) with a keyboard.

As for anything actually graphical, that still leaves you SOL. The keyboard has always been an afterthought instead of the driving force in GUIs/Graphical Apps. This leaves plenty of room for innovation to those who can figure out how to make the GIMP (or even Firefox) efficient (not just bearable) with only a keyboard!

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 27, 2008 10:25 UTC (Thu) by rasjidw (guest, #15913) [Link]

For a web browser one can drive with the keyboard, I've just discovered Conkeror. Is apparently highly extensible too.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 19:24 UTC (Wed) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

nobody wants to nor needs to rearrange the individual buttons in the calculator

Most people don't want to do that. Some people do.

Years ago on the Mac there was a product called Calculator Construction Set that let users do exactly that, and it had a loyal following. There are also user communities for various brands of physical calculators, and many of those users devise alternate button layouts. Occasionally such efforts seem to influence product design by the vendors. Obviously there are some people that care about the details of something as seemingly mundane as a calculator, even if you do not.

In a typical Linux distribution there are a very large number of programs, and aside from some core utilities, many are used by only a small portion of the users of the distribution. That doesn't mean that nobody wants to nor needs to change them, nor that they are unimportant or unworthy of attention.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 6, 2008 17:43 UTC (Thu) by faramir (subscriber, #2327) [Link]

>But true to form Jim Getty misses the boat: nobody wants to nor needs to >rearrange the individual buttons in the calculator. It's a stupid idea, but >what else to expect?

Actually, I think a calculator with easily hidden features would be great for educational purposes. You could use the same program all the way from kindergarten through college, but still only have the stuff visible that makes sense to the activities that the user has at that point in time.

One problem with user interfaces is how to you handle different skill levels or required activities without overwhelming beginning users or constraining expert users. It seems to me that something like the demo (particularly the link to the MOV file) could be a way help solve this problem. The infrastructure demonstrated could easily be used to generate as many different UI variants based on skills/activities as would be required. Individual users could then tailor them further as their interests/skills changed.

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 11:10 UTC (Wed) by njd27 (subscriber, #5770) [Link]

That article could really do with less use of italics and bold

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 14:29 UTC (Wed) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link]

Ohh, the irony... lol

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 5, 2008 14:25 UTC (Wed) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

Was I the only one who thought, just from the title, this was an article related to the "getty" program replacement (or disappearance) on the new desktop world?

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 7, 2008 5:55 UTC (Fri) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

What really annoys me in all GUI systems I have ever seen, Mac and Windows included, is that you cannot copy-paste all text you seen on the screen. Which leads to absurdities like people attaching bitmap images of error dialog boxes to questions or problem reports, even though the dialog contains only text.

Fix that, and you have made some genuine progress in GUIs!

Gettys: Time to lead on the desktop

Posted Nov 7, 2008 13:24 UTC (Fri) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link]

So, you get bit by that too huh?

Honestly!

all the best,

drew
--
http://zotz.kompoz.com

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