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Fedora and long term support

Fedora and long term support

Posted Oct 17, 2008 23:57 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333)
In reply to: Fedora and long term support by sbergman27
Parent article: Fedora and long term support

> Some of us would like choices that a little more in between.

Well Debian gets close to that somewhat.

As you know there are three main branches of Debian at any one time.. Stable, Testing, and Unstable.

With Debian's package management system is fairly flexible when dealing with those sorts of things. You can optionally configure 'apt-pinning' which gives different weights for different branches.

For example you can configure apt-get to always pull packages from Testing, but if they don't exist in Testing apt-get will pull them from Unstable.

If you configure Stable + Testing + Unstable in your system you can give the greatest weight to Testing. This way you can avoid a lot of the churn that comes into play when using Unstable. That way if you want to use OpenOffice.org 3, for example, it's avialable for Unstable, but not testing. So you can pull that specific package down and give it priority.

This sort of thing is what I do to get buy with Debian. My work system uses testing and my home systems use unstable. I'll use approx (a package proxy) to cache packages so that I don't waste bandwidth on copying down multiple copies of the same packages.

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The major suckage about Testing, however, is that directly after a release it's mostly useless. Unless your involved in development your far better off tracking stable for some time, after a release, before switching up.

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Now if you want to track 'Stable' and backport packages it usually takes a bit more effort.

For doing that your better of just leaving your apt-get stuff configured to use stable only for binary pakcages, but track testing or unstable for source packages. Also tracking backports.org is a good idea.

This way you can recompile packages from source specifically for stable. Almost all packages should backport themselves with little to no effort. Sometimes you have to recompile some dependences, but that's not usually much.

This is because if you pull binary packages from Testing then it has the tendency pull many more dependences then it actually needs. So you end up with a hybrid testing/unstable/stable system, which defeats the whole point of running stable.

But by recompiling packages you get the ability to benefit from stable systems, but get the newer versions of software you need for your production system.

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This sort of approach is largely unsuccessfull with Ubuntu, unfortunately. This is because Ubuntu is much less disciplined about packages and backwards compatability. The only reason it works as well as it does in Debian is just through brute force developer hours.

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However even if you use pure Unstable system you won't be able to keep up with Fedora. Fedora's a developer's playground and has the cutting edge features before any other system.

Debian benefits from this hugely. If it wasn't for Fedora being cutting edge and thrashing out bugs and doing all that sort of work.. that work would fall to Debian which would consume massive amounts of resources and manpower. I don't think Debian, as a orginization, would be able to cope with what Fedora does.

Without Fedora (and Ubuntu) Debian would be much more of a mess to deal with.

(and visa versa.. without Debian working on multiple arches and making sure that all the diverse software options worked with one another cleanly (for example: With Debian I can equaly choose between using Sendmail, Exim, or Postfix without breaking stuff badly.. and I can choose equaly between KDE, Gnome, LXDE, or XFCE, and even others. Everything 'just works', mostly.) then Fedora and others would be worse off)


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Debian mix and match, long term support

Posted Oct 19, 2008 0:02 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

That is a lot of work for the user of such a mongrel... and the idea of using a distribution is precisely to avoid such labor-intensive setups. Besides, if you want rock-solid stability, you won't get any guarantee for such a mix-and-match setup.

On the distribution side, keeping stuff backward compatible (in a fashion) for who knows how long is a resource drain that I'd prefer see spent on moving forward.

Debian mix and match, long term support

Posted Oct 19, 2008 20:51 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Beleive me.. Maintaining a working 'testing' distribution is much much much easier then maintaining a latest Fedora setup.

The way things work the packages are designed to work like this. In fact doing what I described works better then trying to be a 'pure' testing user. If you 'pin' packages so that you tell the OS to prefer 'testing' over 'unstable' but allow you to install 'unstable' packages then you avoid a lot of pitfalls that go along with package management.

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And back porting newer packages from testing to stable, by recompiling packages from source packages allows you to use a stable distribution, but selectively upgrade the specific peices of software you need that may be too outdated for what you need. For example: if your tying to run a PHP website you downloaded off the net, but the mysql PHP packages from Debian stable are not new enough then it's easy to selectively upgrade those specific packages you need.

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Basically: If you think this sort of thing is very hard to run and maintain then you have not done it.

Fedora and long term support

Posted Oct 19, 2008 2:49 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link]

"""
As you know there are three main branches of Debian at any one time.. Stable, Testing, and Unstable.
"""

Yes. The Debian Shell Game.

Dialog:

"Debian's old and moldy compared to Distro X".

"No! It's not! It's cutting edge! Use Testing!"

"I couldn't get 'Testing' to install."

"Then try 'Unstable'!"

"OK. Unstable installed, but it has problems 'A', 'B', and 'C'."

"Well, I've just checked and I don't see a bug report from you. Why did you not complete your assignment?"

"I wasn't really thinking of it as an assignment. It's just that everyone was telling me how great Debian was and stuff.

"Well... I still don't see a bug report. You are making me vewwy angwy!!! Try Unstable NOW and file any bug reports!"

But now Linux has trashed my computer. I'm having to post from my girlfriend's Vista box. The word "GRUB" is covering my screen and scrolling up fast. I'm starting to get a little agitated myself.

"Well, it's called "Unstable" for a reason! You should have used stable if you wanted stable! Doofus!"

Fedora and long term support

Posted Oct 19, 2008 20:53 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> "Well, it's called "Unstable" for a reason! You should have used stable if you wanted stable! Doofus!"

At work I have friends that use Fedora, just because that is what they want to use. The amount of times that he has a non-working box (ie: something he depends on is broken) after a upgrade with Fedora is considerably more often then what I have to deal with on any of my machines.

Fedora and long term support

Posted Oct 19, 2008 21:38 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link]

"""
At work I have friends that use Fedora, just because that is what they want to use. The amount of times that he has...
"""

Friend or friends? You are not clear on that point. Yes, Fedora breaks a lot. RHEL and CentOS are substantially more reliable. The Fedora guys do play something of a shell game. Nominally, Fedora is Red Hat's alpha, or beta, or whatever you want to call it. Fedora fans will try to trick you into thinking that Fedora is production ready. After all, they are not the ones who have to deal with the problems.

In general, I prefer CentOS. But if my life depended upon OS reliability, and I could only choose between Debian and Fedora... I'd choose Debian. Without the constraints, I'd choose CentOS.

Fedora and long term support

Posted Oct 20, 2008 14:46 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> ....The amount of times that he has a non-working box (ie: something he depends on is broken) after a upgrade with Fedora is considerably more...

Are you referring to upgrades from Fedora X to Fedora X+1 here, or are you referring to the nightly-ish "download and apply the latest set of updated packages to Fedora X"

From my experience, the latter breaking things is quite rare, usually due to an upstream bug, while the former is more common, but at the same time, is to be expected.

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