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Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Bruce Perens discusses open standards in vertical markets in a Datamation article. "History repeats itself in interesting ways. Vertical markets are today grappling with their own need for truly Open Standards, going through all of the pain that the broader IT industry suffered two decades ago. Fortunately, the verticals can learn from the experience of the broader IT industry that has already fought these battles. So, of all the critical industries crying out for Open Standards, who is campaigning for them in their own industry today? Is it the manufacturers of voting machines, who must establish high standards to safeguard democracy? Or the medical records system vendors? Nope, it's the makers of casino slot machines."
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Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Posted Oct 16, 2008 18:45 UTC (Thu) by Ed_L. (guest, #24287) [Link]

Er, Bruce? I can understand why medical records system vendors might conceivably in some alternate universe possibly want to implement rigorous and open standards. To avoid lawsuits, you know. But why would any sane person delude themselves that it is in the interest of voting machine vendors to "safeguard democracy"?

Did you perhaps forget your [irony] tags?

:-)

Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Posted Oct 16, 2008 20:28 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

Thanks for writing, Ed.

Of late, the mistaken assumption that a free market always optimizes for greatest good has come under some challenge. It seems that a well-regulated market, one that enforces some values other than "grab as much for yourself as possible and to hell with everyone else", actually has some value.

We are lucky enough to have a Secretary of State here in California who actually places a priority on accurate, verifiable voting systems and understands the problems that come when e-voting vendors aren't held to high standards.

So, there is some hope yet.

You are voting, right?

Bruce

Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Posted Oct 16, 2008 21:01 UTC (Thu) by Ed_L. (guest, #24287) [Link]

Yes Bruce, I am voting right: on a Proper paper mail-in ballot as God and our Colorado Secretary of State intended. :)

We too had a bit of a brouhaha earlier this year when Republican Secretary of State Mike Coffman, reading State statutes as our legislature originally intended, de-certified some 80% of our voting machines as not being verifiable and secure. With full support of our Democratic Governor (and former Denver District Attorney) Bill Ritter. And over the dead bodies of most of our County Clerks and Election Commissions, who appealed to the legislature and had the statute appropriately amended.

At least for this election cycle. They were up against a bit of a deadline with the August primary. Whether compromise was in order or not is a matter of opinion, but that is what transpired, and the Secretary of State dutifully certified most of the electronic machines, as the amended statute intended. Fortunately for the County Clerks and Election Commissions, Mr. Coffman is term-limited and headed for the door.

Fortunately for the rest of us, he also appears headed for Congress, although in a tight election dependent on electronic voting machines, one can never be sure...

:-)

Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Posted Oct 16, 2008 22:36 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> Of late, the mistaken assumption that a free market always optimizes for greatest good has come under some challenge. It seems that a well-regulated market, one that enforces some values other than "grab as much for yourself as possible and to hell with everyone else", actually has some value.

If you say so.

But with the recent crisis you have to understand that those orginizations that caused the problem are already very well regulated. They changed the terms and accounting practices to work around those laws and nobody in congress did anything to stop them.

Despite what congress with admit or any of the people from those companies will tell you that they purposely and with a great deal of thought broke many multiple laws on multiple occasions.

The trick is, you see, that the people running the federal government have a great deal of money invested into those corporations that they are in charge of regulating. So when ever you have large financial issues like this.. like the oil grab from the 70's or S&L crisis, or any of the the financial melt downs that happen regularly every 7 years or once a decade or so, the US federal government steps in and tightens down controls.

But you see the sort of beuarcracies that are put in charge of monitoring those large financial institutions are only given enough budget to operate for about 5 years or so. After 5 years they run out of money and now exist as little more then zombie government orginizations. If they actually tried to procescute the backlog of people guilty of violating tax laws or other such regulations they would be dragging people into court for at least the next 100 years, just to get caught up to were they are today.

The reason for all of this is lack of political will on the part of the politicians to actually do anything about the problems that they help create.

That's how our government works nowadays, and most others. Over the past 75 years or so they passed so many laws that nobody know all of them. Even scholars whose job is to document and research USA laws can't possibly tell you how many federal laws and statutes are out there. There are tens of thousands of laws that could put you in jail.

So what they do is only enforce the laws that are convenent for them to enforce. If they are making money from people behaving badly and are getting campain contributions then they are happy to look the other way and not provide the financials (ie: political will) to then go out and stop those people from behaving badly.

For example.. With this latest crisis began with with fair housing acts and whatnot. People felt it was unfair that it was very difficult for a statistically averge minority person to get a house compared to a statistically average white person. This is because, on average, minority people tend to be poorer. Banks will hesitate lend money for houses to poor people because poor people can't afford nice houses and won't be able to make good payments. To get a house it was much harder to prove that you could afford it by producing a large down payment, if you are poor.

So in a effort to counter the evil effects of capitalism, which ment poor people didn't have nicer stuff, the government made sure to pass and enforce laws that kept quotas on the sort of loans that banks and made sure that a certain percentage went to people that couldn't afford them, because those people tended, more often then not to be minorities.

In order to get the banks to play along the USA government agreed to insure the loans and compinsate the big lenders a bit for the money they would loose. And as return for that those lenders gave campaign contributions. In return for that then government looked the other way when lenders would trade dept and monkey around with numbers to get around laws that were established after the great depression to prevent the sort of loss of confidence that caused that problem.

That's just one aspect, of course. That alone would not cause the issue we are in now. There are lots and of other issues.

For example:

Because banks were doing bad loans and had money games in place to work around laws, and were able to get some laws repealled they realized that, in the short term, that it was profitable to give out loans to people to groups of people that they would not normally give loans for... like a person making 75 thousand dollar a year trying to buy a million dollar house.

Now.. this goes hand in hand with the distinct lack of housing avialable for growing populations.

In a effort to keep urban spraw down to a minimum and keep environmental impacts low it was very popular for governments, mostly on either coast, to make it very difficult and expensive to do new housing developments. In my neck of the woods it's very common for a development company to purchase a farmland and stick housing on it. It can take 2-3 months for a small company to build several hundred homes, including streets, electrical, pumbing, stores, and everything else to support a neighborhood. Of course this sort of capitalism is evil, building houses for people, since it's all squashes the environment and leads to urban sprawl.

So places like California make all that very difficult and expensive. Of course at the same time they are having growing populations. Fast growing populations. Plus good economic times. So you have lots of people with decent incomes looking at a rapidly shrinking housing market.

So you have a shrinking supply, increasing demand, and little ability to quickly build large numbers of cheap houses, you had massive increases in the price of housing. So people got used to buying a house, it's price going up rapidly, and selling the house a couple years later at a huge profit.

So you have a combination of government regulation inadvertanly causing massive increases in the prices of houses, combined with government regulation causing lending standards to dramatically go down, combined with the lack of political will to enforce existing regulations, caused by everybody making lots and lots of money and getting nice fat campaign contributions.

So it got to the point were a person buying a new house in a exploding market could get one with no money down, and interest-only payments. That person would buy the house with the expectations that they could turn around and sell it at a profit a year or two later.

So if your buying a house with no down, and interest only for 2 years, and you are planning on selling it in 2 years for a huge profit.. then should you buy a house for 90,000 dollars, 150,000 dollars, 500,000 dollars, or 1,000,0000 dollars? The bigger and more expensive you bought the house the more profit you made. So people ran out and bought the biggest they could possibly afford, figuring they would make big profits.

This, of course, went on long enough that it collasped like a regular old fasioned pyramid schemes.

----------------------------------------

Oh, and did I forget to mention that all of this market activity was going a long way to sustain the economy, even in the face of massively growing government debt over the war?

---------------------------------------

Oh, and there are several large instituations that kept things right and kept things on the level. Lots of middle sized and small sized lenders and banks.

They didn't engage in this foolishness to the same degree and they have large amounts of good capital in their control and very little bad debt to drag them down.

They behaved themselves, they did the right thing, and as a result after the predictable melt-down they should be sitting very pretty and be in a dominate position. They are trustworthy and should be doing good right now.

But they aren't. And you know why?

Because all those companies that behaved badly, that sold bad debt to each other and foreign countries, that played games, and now are risking bankrupcy... they are getting billions and billions of dollars from the government to rescue them. Buckets and buckets of money. Tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars for breaking the laws over and over again.

And those companies that behaved, and thus lost a lot of market share, and lost chances at making lots of short-term profits... they are getting NOTHING. They are getting no money, because they have little bad debt to sell. They are receiving jack shit and are completely and totally getting screwed over by everybody for doing the right thing.

-----------------------------------

All of this is due to corrupt government working with corrupt financial institutions working a largely compliant and lazy population that are happy to see lots of profits, without understanding or even caring about the long term issues.

Saying that we need to clamp down on the 'free market' and the 'free market' is to blame is ignoring the fact that when you have government working together with the top 2-3 corporations in the country for the past few decades you do not have a free market.

There isn't a free market, and it has not been free for decades.

Interesting, detailed explanation of single tree in big forest

Posted Oct 17, 2008 0:56 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

And all this is relevant to LWN... how exactly? But ok. Market worked exactly like it should work these last few decades. When Government (Ronald Reagan's government!) gave market cheap, easy debt money market created a lot of institutions to convert these imaginary money to real goods (housing bubble was just a latest one, not the principal one). And like always it was done with great efficiency. As long as "money ore" was healthy (federal rates went down and down) everything worked just fine. Once "money ore" reached bottom (rates approached zero) the whole system went to hell - but it's not a market fault. Market just does not work in finite word - and it does not matter what limits are reached: real (like with oil) or artificial (like with debt money). It crashes, contracts so as to not touch the limits - then starts again. That's because free market can only exist in expanding world.

There isn't a free market, and it has not been free for decades.

True. When free market reaches system limits it crashes. Then everything starts again. It was explained many-many years ago. When government tried to avoid this vicious cycle it just turned series of small crashes to one HUGE crash. I don't see how current crisis can affect you belief in free market...

BTW your instituations which "kept things right and kept things on the level" are punished because they failed: they were unable to mine given "money ore" efficiently - why they should be regarded as good entrepreneurs?

Off topic

Posted Oct 17, 2008 2:06 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

Yes, if you want to talk about the economy, please go over to technocrat.net and post a story. It's too off-topic here.

Off topic... ...I'll bring it back (somewhat anyway)

Posted Oct 17, 2008 6:13 UTC (Fri) by frazier (guest, #3060) [Link]

It would appear that you started it.

I'll sneak this one back on topic. Introducing government regulation sometimes has short term gains but rarely results in a long term advantage.

In more recent times, think of all the crap that's passed in the last decade, from Clinton's October 1998 signings (DMCA, Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act) to the "H.R. 4279: Prioritizing Resources and Organization for Intellectual Property Act of 2008"

Two party problem with one obvious conclusion: Things would be better if the government had done nothing.

I've had people tell me "There's more important issues". Fine. Get your people who support this crap to stop wasting their time on it. Problem solved. They have more time for "more important issues" and they'll stop messing with information systems and transfer.

That's my take.

-Brock

The Holy And Devine Free Market, Savior of All

Posted Oct 17, 2008 11:01 UTC (Fri) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link]

Failing oversight brought us this crisis. The banks took too many risks. Short turn revenue and personal financial benefit was the motto.

The free market failed here. It blew up in our faces. It blew up in your face as well. No matter how you much you cick and scream, now matter how much you twist and turn, now matter how much you try to juggle, the free market failed here.

The free market is a simply optimization heuristic. It optimizes *some* quantity. Does the quantity that this heuristic optimizes coincide with the interest of societay at large? Is this heuristic garanteed to find a global optimum?

Hmm.. simple heuritsic vs comlpex society.. some knowledge on optimization techniques.. don't think the free market on its own is up to the task. I thus have a hard time understanding the naivity, stupidity and plain religious nuttery of those that defend en profet the gospel according to The Church Of The Holy And Devine Godness that is The Free Market and defend that Godness like it was Genesis in the face of fossils.

First, a cursory introduction to optimization heuritsics will tell you that these are hard presses to find a global optimum, they tend to be good at finding local optima. Second, ethical constraints, think women trade, child porn, on the free market clearly demonstrate that that what the free market optimizes does not coincide with the common good. Thridly, if left unattended, the free market will converge to monoplies and kartels, thus killing itself.

See? The free market has its limitations. It is not a Godness, it is not our Savior, shat should be left alone and untouched no matter waht happens. It is a useful and profitable heuristic, but on its own, it is not up to the task of organizing and optimizing complex socities.


The Holy And Devine Free Market, Savior of All

Posted Oct 17, 2008 15:11 UTC (Fri) by leightonbrown (subscriber, #6264) [Link]

Genesis in the face of fossils
off topic but - fossils are not necessarily inconsistent with Genesis

Intellectual self deceit

Posted Oct 18, 2008 13:27 UTC (Sat) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link]

Sorry, but the days I could have respect for people who deceive themselves intellectually have long past. This goes for people who twist and turn to save the concept of the free market that should be left untouched no matter what, where it has just blown up in their faces as well as for people who squeek, juggle, twist and turn to save God as the creator of the earth and everything around it where all of the available evidence points in an entirely different direction. Any dictionary contains a fine word to describe such self deceit: stupidity. Sorry.

Compare it to an airliner crash investigation. There is exactly one sequence of events that caused the demise of the airplain. What was it? The envistigators' job is to find out the actual sequence of events that caused the plain to crash. In the process of their job, the collect all available evidence, formulate hypotheses that the evidence give rise to, conduct experiments to put their hypotheses, reject these if these don't pass the test and formulate alternative hypotheses.

There is only one sequence of events that brought about the earth and the universe as we know it. Exactly one. Unraveling what that one way is, is the task that a range of scientist have set themselves to. Thus far, the evidence has led them to the Big Bang, cluster formation, galaxy formation, stellar evolution, planet formation and biological evolution and all that.

Creationism and it variations are like insisting that AA 587 crashed due to terrorism, even though the people that actually studied the remnants in detail reached an entirely different conclusion.

Is it the hypothesis that God created the earth as we know it and everything around it several thousands of years ago, fossils, coal deposits and what have you included, that you have in mind, per chance? I propose a competing hypothesis: God did so just 10 minutes ago. Heck, I can propose a multitude of competing hypotheses: God did so an hour ago, God did so a day ago, a year ago, 100,000 years ago, a billions years ago, 120100018934.899 years ago.. that Wodan did so 10000 years ago, that Thor did so 3000 years ago, that Taaroa did so 7000 years ago. ad infinitum. Which one is it? How could we possibly decide which of these overcountable (yes, in the set theory sense of the word) amount of hypotheses corresposnds to the one that corresponds to the one way in how earth and the universe actually came about? Why the choise in favor of Genesis?

Evolution does not need special assumptions. Not only has evolution been observed in the laboratory, it is a simple hypothesis that explains a wide range of phenomena: from the existance of life on earth, the increase in complexity of organisms over time, to the emergance of novel deseases, entire populations showing more immunity to certain deseases than others, germs becoming immune to antibiotics.

The Holy And Devine Free Market, Savior of All

Posted Oct 17, 2008 16:20 UTC (Fri) by Ed_L. (guest, #24287) [Link]

Actually and all sarcasm aside, Rev is quite correct. Back in University I did a year of Econ 101 from Paul Samuelson's classic text. One of the best courses I ever did. After the second semester's final, our instructor was "Congratulations. It may sober you to realize that you have now acquired more formal economic training than 95% of all persons who have ever served in the U.S. Congress."

But I digress. One thing I did learn is that Smith's "Invisible Hand" is no more than Newton-type optimization working against local market parameters, and it only works optimally (for the consumer) where you actually have a free market. Where there is "sufficient competition", goods providers optimize their own profits by providing the lowest cost to the consumer of those goods.

Likewise, you can also show (maths) that a monopoly or oligopoly, acting to optimize its profits, will end up selling its goods at a price higher than what would be obtained from more competition. This is the basis of laws intended to promote competition, and while some of the econ staff on the committees that drafted those statutes may have understood their basis and limitations, such was most likely lost on the majority of those who actually voted them into law.

In the classical econ sense, the "higher price" exacted by monopolies is measured in dollars (Newton optimization). But its not hard to visualize the concept as extending to other forms of "higher cost" to the consumer society as well.

And as our instructor also pointed out: "The reason we economists always hold up the winter red wheat market as the poster child for free market economics is because by today ('74)the winter red wheat market is probably the only market that remains, in the classical sense, free."

As Rev alludes, the absolute worst excesses of Capitalism were perpetrated by unregulated monopolies and oligopolies. Standard Oil, meat packing in the presence of essentially unlimited labor supply (Upton Sinclair), the Irish potato famine. From which resulted Karl Marx, the Sherman Antitrust Act and its offspring, child labor laws, railroad and mining safety laws and their latter-day OSHA and EPA offspring, and government protection of workers' right to unionize. No, today's market is in no way "free", and we are all better off for it. Doesn't mean capitalism can't, shouldn't, and doesn't act to (locally) optimize profits and wealth. But it is, and must be, a constrained local optimization.

Government must (and does) set at least some of those constraints. And as for long-term global optimization? Not part of classical Adam Smith economics. Requires foresight and willingness to sacrifice short-term profit for long-term gains, both of which a classical "free" market abjectly lacks.

And in the sense that all these optimization concepts are eminently subject to computer modeling, they remain in that sense "on-topic" at LWN. Whether or not they're worth hijacking a Bruce Perens thread is a matter of subjective opinion. :-)

The Holy And Devine Free Market, Savior of All

Posted Oct 17, 2008 20:07 UTC (Fri) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link]

Can we say that a market in which limited liability corporations operate is a free market? Some of the players have unlimited liability while others have government granted limited liability. That right there puts the players on an unequal footing and it is the governments doing.

Yes? No? Why?

Now, whether this is a good thing or not is another discussion.

all the best,

drew

The natural market equilibrium, suppressed by almost all

Posted Oct 19, 2008 21:10 UTC (Sun) by Max.Hyre (subscriber, #1054) [Link]

Can we say that a market in which limited liability corporations operate is a free market? Some of the players have unlimited liability while others have government granted limited liability. That right there puts the players on an unequal footing and it is the governments doing.
There seems to be a symmetry here that I've never managed to describe succinctly—so you get the prolix one.

What we have here (in corporations) is a way to allow money to band together to reinforce its power. A corporation with a hundred thousand stockholders in for $100 each is vastly more powerful than a hundred thousand random people with the price of a couple of tanks of gas. They do this by joining a governmentally-approved, nay, -encouraged money amplifier.

The symmetry: a union. A way to allow a few hundred, a few thousand, or more people to band together to reinforce their power.

It's obvious that one is for people with money, and the other for those without. In a free market, wouldn't they be equally supported?

Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Posted Oct 17, 2008 18:09 UTC (Fri) by vmole (guest, #111) [Link]

So in a effort to counter the evil effects of capitalism, which ment poor people didn't have nicer stuff, the government made sure to pass and enforce laws that kept quotas on the sort of loans that banks and made sure that a certain percentage went to people that couldn't afford them, because those people tended, more often then not to be minorities.

Not true. The law said that banks couldn't redline entire areas just because many of the people in them couldn't afford the loan's, or or use different standards for loans for different locations. In other words, they had to treat all applicants the same. There were no quotas, or substandard loan requirements.

Bruce Perens: A Vertical Market Seeks Open Standards (Datamation)

Posted Oct 17, 2008 21:59 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

The Republicans have decided that it would be a good idea to blame the crisis on the Community Reinvestment Act, a measure designed to steer more loans to previously excluded minorities (31 years ago!). But the biggest players in the subprime mortgage house of cards were institutions that were exempt from the act, because they weren't regular banks. See this article for details.

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