What you can do for "Lenny"
| From: | Alexander Reichle-Schmehl <tolimar-AT-debian.org> | |
| To: | debian-devel-announce-AT-lists.debian.org | |
| Subject: | What you can do for "Lenny" | |
| Date: | Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:44:49 +0200 | |
| Message-ID: | <20081006164449.GC23237@melusine.alphascorpii.net> |
Hi! You probably noticed by now, that Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 aka "Lenny" hasn't been released in September. Well, that's a shame, but very easy to explain: Too many release critical bugs[1]. 1: http://bts.turmzimmer.net/graph-large.png Well, our release team coordinated several transitions, took care of release goals, but it's pretty hard to estimate, how fast RC bugs will be fixed, and apparently they were a bit to optimistic :( The big question is: What can you do, to help release "Lenny" at least in this quarter? That's pretty easy: Fix rc-bugs, take care, that the fixed packages are migrated to "Lenny", do upgrade tests, document problems in the release-notes. Pretty simple, isn't it? For users (or better: For everyone) ========= Even as a "simple user" (aren't we all just users?) you may help getting "Lenny" released. Some things you can do: * If you are running stable (aka "Etch"), you could consider upgrading to "Lenny" and see, if everything works fine. Currently there are no detailed release notes documenting the procedure, so you best way to test upgrades are to: 1. Make backups 2. Change your /etc/apt/sources.list 3. Run aptitude update to get information about new packages 4. Run aptitude install dpkg aptitude apt to install the newest package management 5. Run aptitude full-upgrade If something goes wrong / something unexpected happens, please report it. If you already know a specific package, report a bug against that package. If you don't know, please report a bug describing the problem you experienced to the upgrade-reports package. If your problem is something, which can't be fixed properly, but should be documented (e.g. hardware support regressions, packages no longer available) please report a bug against the release-notes package (Bonus points if you not only report the bug, but also supply a paragraph to be added to the release notes). * Speaking of the release notes[2]: You can take a look at the bugs reported against the release notes and see if you can help there, e.g. by writing a paragraph describing a problem. 2: http://bugs.debian.org/release-notes * Install the package devscripts[3] (you'll need the version provided by backports.org[4], and run the script rc-alert --include-dists TU. You'll get a list of release critical bugs open for one of the packages you have installed. Guessing that you have them installed, because you are using them and are interested in them, you should have a very high interest to get this bugs fixed :) 3: http://packages.debian.org/devscripts 4: http://www.backports.org/ You can try to help, by trying to reproduce them and reporting that to the bug report. There are even some easy bugs, where the maintainer hasn't found the time, yet to fix it. Bug 497290[5] for example didn't need deep technical skills. It just needed someone with some time to collect the needed data for the copyright file. 5: http://bugs.debian.org/497290 * If you speak a language other than English, you might consider joining the translation efforts. While it is to late to translate the debian-installer or the installation guide to a new language for "Lenny" (perhaps for the next release then?), you could start translating the release notes to a not yet supported language. If you are willing to do so (which can be quite time consuming, especially in the final phase), please contact either your localization team[6] or the debian doc mailing list[7] if there's no local mailing list. 6: http://lists.debian.org/i18n.html 7: http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/ See? Even as a "simple user" without deeper technical knowledge you can help us getting "Lenny" in shape to be released. If you have technical knowledge: Very good! You might want to read the next section, too, and see what applies to you, there :) For maintainers (Or: For everyone with some more experience) =============== It basically boils down to two things: If your packages have RC bugs open in "Lenny" fix them and take care, that the fix will propagate to "Lenny". If your packages don't have RC bugs open, fix someone else's RC bug. Surely you don't think, the release team will fix the remaining rc bugs, do you? And surely you understand, that your shiny rc bug free packages are kind of useless, if they aren't released? To search for bugs to be fixed, take a look at the unofficial rc bugs thingy[8]. The URL lists RC bugs open in both "Sid" and "Lenny". Obviously they should be fixed ASAP. If no one takes care about these packages, they might be removed from "Lenny" (if possible). 8: http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php?bydist=both&sor... Again: Try to reproduce the bug, try fix it, upload an NMU (or send your patch to the bug report and search for an sponsor). You'll notice, that some of these bugs already have a patch. In that case, your job would be to test the patch, report that to the bug report and offer to sponsor an NMU. Another interesting list is the list of rc bugs open only in "Lenny"[9]. These bugs have been fixed, but the fix hasn't propagated to "Lenny", yet. Normally, the release team will grant freeze exceptions for these packages if possible. However, if the changes to the fixed version are quite grave or the package in "Sid" depends on a newer package than in "Lenny" that's not possible. In these cases look out for packages marked as "need tpu upload" or similar. 9: http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php?bydist=lenny-only&... Oh, and if you could refrain from upload new upstream versions of packages to "Sid", you would make all our lives easier. Some reasons: * New packages won't reach "Lenny" anyway. * Upload new packages to "Sid" makes it harder to get a fix into "Lenny" should a new bug be found. * Uploading a new package makes it harder for other packages depending on your package to be migrated to "Lenny". * You are wasting the buildd's time. And of course you should spend your time fixing rc bugs anyway ;) Best regards, Alexander "To send out release announcements I do everything" Reichle-Schmehl
Posted Oct 6, 2008 19:46 UTC (Mon)
by ciol (guest, #52160)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 7, 2008 4:15 UTC (Tue)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link]
Also, Debian is a do-ocracy, if you want Debian on the desktop to be better, do something about it!
Posted Oct 6, 2008 20:37 UTC (Mon)
by buchanmilne (guest, #42315)
[Link] (23 responses)
I hang out in the IRC channels of some technologies I use and can assist others, and then someone comes along saying "I can't get foo to work in Breezy". In an OS-agnostic channel, you expect everyone to keep up with release codenames of your distro??
Honestly.
How about LWN changes the topic of this article to "What you can do for the upcoming Debian stable ("Lenny") release". Sure, that's not the subject of the mail, but the mail was sent to a Debian-specific list (thus, nothing wrong with assuming familiarity). But, LWN isn't supposed to be a distro-specific site.
Or, should we expect everyone to know the codename of every release of every piece of open source software.
Sorry, but that just doesn't Tikanga the Traktopel with me.
Posted Oct 6, 2008 20:45 UTC (Mon)
by jake (editor, #205)
[Link] (7 responses)
No, I guess I just expected that one might read the first few words of the blurb and see that it was talking about a Debian release.
Sorry for the confusion.
jake
Posted Oct 6, 2008 21:28 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (6 responses)
Codenames must be explained either in title (preferrably) or in article excerpt, not in the article itself, or on the first page of article's website or, god forbid, on the "first result returned by Google" (I've see such justifications too). It's editorial work. If I just want unabridged uncommented stream of announces - I can always add 10'000 RSS links to Google Reader... May be you know what all these codenames mean (I suppose it's part of your work as editor), but readers surely shouldn't know that...
Posted Oct 6, 2008 21:35 UTC (Mon)
by allesfresser (guest, #216)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 6, 2008 21:55 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
WTF and RSS are explained in a dictionary (select just "most common" category - usually it's enough). "Lenny" is not. Plus my post is not shown on main page of LWN so it's not so important...
Posted Oct 16, 2008 22:04 UTC (Thu)
by anton (subscriber, #25547)
[Link]
Posted Oct 7, 2008 11:59 UTC (Tue)
by rvfh (guest, #31018)
[Link] (1 responses)
Second, 'WTF' is not polite and you should keep this kind of words (and their initials) for those sites/lists were people like to rant and insult each other. This is not the case here. Please.
Third, most LWN readers do known who Lenny is: a shepherdess, girlfriend of Woody.
And fourth, for Pete's sake, is that all so important? Why so much rage? Why say "100% editing failure"? Is this not quite out of measure?
C'mon, get a grip.
Posted Oct 10, 2008 18:23 UTC (Fri)
by tpenfoun (guest, #5945)
[Link]
Posted Oct 9, 2008 14:51 UTC (Thu)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link]
Posted Oct 6, 2008 20:46 UTC (Mon)
by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Oct 6, 2008 21:38 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Oct 6, 2008 21:49 UTC (Mon)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link] (5 responses)
I understand Ubuntu release codename are annoying since they change so often,
Posted Oct 6, 2008 22:05 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
It's as simple as that: you can not expect "general public" to know what the Debian developers or users know. Most LWN readers are not Debian developers. And not all are Debian users, believe it or not.. This is what the initial buchanmilne's complaint was all about...
Posted Oct 6, 2008 22:40 UTC (Mon)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (2 responses)
In a news article there it is completely, and totally, unreasonable to explain every codeword or other detail. Frankly I am suprised that anybody reading this website doesn't automatically know what Debian Lenny is.
Seriously. If you don't know your living under a rock. If your at all a Linux professional or hobbyist or anything like that and you don't know some very basic things (like this) about Debian that is a HUGE gap in your knowledge, and you should, right now, go down and do some basic research. You are missing out, big time. It's only for your own benefit.
--------------------------------
You know what happens when you type the terms 'Debian' and 'Lenny' in google and click 'I feel lucky'?
http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/
This information is NOT difficult to find out. It's not secret. In fact it's sprayed all over the place any time anybody talks about Debian for anything.
Posted Oct 7, 2008 8:14 UTC (Tue)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link] (1 responses)
Same goes for Ubuntu, where it's even worse because the user might be on any version
Code names are exactly that: code. The original intent of "code" is that _not_ everyone
Posted Oct 7, 2008 10:58 UTC (Tue)
by hppnq (guest, #14462)
[Link]
Of course, if you don't even know what "Lenny" is.
.. it would still be better to complain on this mailing list.
Uhm, they use some kind of Hungarian notation? You seem to forget that
every code needs an interpreter.
Posted Oct 7, 2008 14:05 UTC (Tue)
by buchanmilne (guest, #42315)
[Link]
Posted Oct 6, 2008 23:20 UTC (Mon)
by efexis (guest, #26355)
[Link]
Posted Oct 7, 2008 2:41 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (3 responses)
The choice of referring to debian projects solely by unsortable codenames when it is generally known the release order is hiding information and stupid.
The names used to refer to successive releases of the SAME THING should be sortable, so that users can determine the order. When referring to an imminent release, one shuld use turns of phrase such as:
"Lenny", the upcoming release of Debian Stable, currently in release process, optimistically expected to complete this year.
Of course this is insufficient, since the version number has undoubtedly been selected by now and should also be invoked, regardless of whatever phantom menaces you can conjure about CD-Rom sales. And the codename, as above needs to be sortable.
Posted Oct 7, 2008 16:11 UTC (Tue)
by allesfresser (guest, #216)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 7, 2008 18:05 UTC (Tue)
by hppnq (guest, #14462)
[Link]
But what is this dodgy "Debian" people keep talking about?!
Posted Oct 7, 2008 18:33 UTC (Tue)
by alfille (subscriber, #1631)
[Link]
This is just like reviewing program code. Everything can be unobfuscated with enough effort, but clarity has many advantages.
We read LWN for a higher level view of the linux development scene. I assume that the editor was so immersed in Debian that he automatically knew what Lenny meant. I know that I didn't.
While the vehemence of the original complaint is misplaced, the point is valid.
Posted Oct 7, 2008 11:37 UTC (Tue)
by yyz (guest, #54552)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 7, 2008 14:16 UTC (Tue)
by buchanmilne (guest, #42315)
[Link]
Posted Oct 7, 2008 3:01 UTC (Tue)
by yarikoptic (guest, #36795)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 7, 2008 12:35 UTC (Tue)
by nowster (subscriber, #67)
[Link]
What you can do for "Lenny"
They chose to only target system administrators?
Stick with that and ask them to help.
What you can do for "Lenny"
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
> of every piece of open source software.
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
No, I guess I just expected that one might read the first few words of the blurb and see that it was talking about a Debian release.
Excuse meeeee. I've read the whole thing, not just first few words:The Debian project is looking for folks to help them kick "Lenny" out the door. To that end, they have created a detailed list of tasks suitable for regular users as well as developers. "The big question is: What can you do, to help release "Lenny" at least in this quarter? That's pretty easy: Fix rc-bugs, take care, that the fixed packages are migrated to "Lenny", do upgrade tests, document problems in the release-notes. Pretty simple, isn't it? Click below for the full list.
What is this "Lenny"? New bugtracker? New installer? May be it's a new version of super-free Browser? Oh, right: I should open the the article to understand what the article excerpt is saying! WTF is this? Right: 100% editing failure. May be buchanmilne is too emotional, but this does not make your failure as editor less glaring.
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Hmm... Should I include the whole contents of dictionary, too? Which one? Oxford? Webster?
Hmm... Should I include the whole contents of dictionary, too? Which one? Oxford? Webster?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
You are too easily irritable, since the question you ask (what's Lenny?) is answered in the first complete sentence (after "Hi!") in the article.
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Huh?
You are too easily irritable, since the question you ask (what's Lenny?) is answered in the first complete sentence (after "Hi!") in the article.
...which is not included in the excerpt. If you reread the complaint (may be too emotional, but that's probably because it happens so often and is so irritating) it's directed specifically at LWN editors not at the authors of the original article. The whole except looks like this:What you can do for "Lenny"
First sentence? Ok: The Debian project is looking for folks to help them kick "Lenny" out the door. Oh, poor Lenny. The big bad Debian project is kicking him out of the door - and it's not ashamed to announce that ... We should save him! Will the old clothes help? Or will he need shelter first? May be we should call Red Cross? First sentence surely does not help and the whole except is barely decipherable either - you should read the article to understand what it talks about... Yellow press employs tricks like this, but I expect better from LWN...
The Debian project is looking for folks to help them kick "Lenny" out the door. To that end, they have created a detailed list of tasks suitable for regular users as well as developers. "The big question is: What can you do, to help release "Lenny" at least in this quarter? That's pretty easy: Fix rc-bugs, take care, that the fixed packages are migrated to "Lenny", do upgrade tests, document problems in the release-notes. Pretty simple, isn't it? Click below for the full list. YOU KICKED LENNY YOU BASTARD !
but Debian stable release codename, seriously ?
Debian's post was Ok, LWN's announce of it was not
Debian's post was Ok, LWN's announce of it was not
Debian's post was Ok, LWN's announce of it was not
everywhere. I know that quite well. Yes I know debian, yes I even know that the code
names are figures in Toy Story. But every time someone on the DRBD mailing list or
anywhere else asks a question like "I installed DRBD on Lenny and have this problem", I
just stop reading, because I simply don't want to do this anymore. Debian has already a
perfect scheme: unstable, testing, stable. That's what makes sense and what gives you
at least some information about what this user is doing.
of the last years or even an older LTS. With their year-based version numbers I'd at least
immediately get an idea about how old this users's version is.
understands it and that works quite well.
Debian's post was Ok, LWN's announce of it was not
I think what the original poster is complaining about is
that this work is burdoned on him
everywhere.
But every time someone on the DRBD mailing list or
anywhere else asks a question ...
With their year-based version numbers I'd at least
immediately get an idea about how old this users's version
is.
Thank you for proving my point
This post was sent to debian-devel-announce.
But, I originally said:
I'm fine with people referring to releases by codename on mailing lists dedicated to that software project. But, using it outside the project is meaningless IMHO. That being the whole point of a code name, by definition.
Sure, that's not the subject of the mail, but the mail was sent to a Debian-specific list (thus, nothing wrong with assuming familiarity). But, LWN isn't supposed to be a distro-specific site.
I understand Ubuntu release codename are annoying since they change so often, but Debian stable release codename, seriously ?
Well, I'm actually wondering if anyone recognized the distribution codenames I used at the end of my original post:
Sorry, but that just doesn't Tikanga the Traktopel with me.
The fact that no one has commmented on that seems to indicate that people *aren't* familiar with linux distribution releases by their code name, proving my point.
We should save him! Will the old clothes help? Or will he need shelter first? May be we should call Red CrossHuh?
Well this is a Linux publication, so what would your guess be?
Whilst I hate for this to turn into some slashdotesk flaming, you're both blatently just being difficult. I knew what was meant by Lenny (enough within the context) and I haven't used a Linux distribution in years (I compile everything from the source at the top of the stream), so there's no way it's only people using Debian that would know what it is.
I don't think it's a failure on the part of the editor to assume that readers of a regular Linux publication have a bell or two ring when reading "Lenny", I believe it a failure on the reader if a bell or two doesn't, at least I fail to understand why you'd be reading here without cursory knowledge of one of the more major distributions, as it doesn't really indicate much interest for the subject.
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Some people like to spend time arguing about, say, conventions, instead of, say, simply reading the first line of the article they are commenting on. Happens all the time.
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
Who is "Lenny" and why should I do anything for him?
LWN and many other news oriented sites will copy a statement or two from the actual article to give an idea of what the article contains.
If you actually read the section that is quoted on the main page, you will notice that it is not sufficient to determine that Lenny is the upcoming Debian stable release. It could be many other projects related to Debian.
What you can do for "Lenny"
Debian Grolsch spoof
What you can do for "Lenny"
