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Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

ComputerWorld reports that Lenovo is discontinuing sales of pre-installed Linux systems. "Lenovo Group Ltd. is cutting back on sales of desktops and laptop systems with the Linux operating system pre-installed. The PC maker said yesterday that it will no longer take online orders for computers pre-loaded with any flavor of Linux. Ray Gorman, a spokesman for the company, said that it will continue offering such machines only through its own or partner direct sales teams. "Our commitment to Linux has not changed," said Gorman in an e-mail to Computerworld. "What's changed is that customers will no longer be able to order Lenovo ThinkPads and ThinkCentres with pre-installed Linux via the lenovo.com Web site.""
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Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 7:06 UTC (Fri) by bignose (subscriber, #40) [Link]

> "Our commitment to Linux has not changed," said Gorman in an e-mail to Computerworld. "What's changed is that customers will no longer be able to order Lenovo ThinkPads and ThinkCentres with pre-installed Linux via the lenovo.com Web site."

Contrary to how a corporate marketspeke dictionary might prefer, that *is* a change of commitment: specifically, a reduction of commitment.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 7:15 UTC (Fri) by DG (subscriber, #16978) [Link]

Yes, but combine :

"Their online sales for pre-installed Linux weren't hitting big enough numbers, he added."

and "The company will continue to pre-certify Novell and Red Hat Linux on ThinkPad laptops and ThinkCentre desktops. Lenovo is also adding Ubuntu certification for new ThinkPad and ThinkCentre PCs, according to Gorman"

perhaps that's over quoting.

David.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 7:38 UTC (Fri) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

I just visited their website and it recommended Windows Vista on just about every page. OS options were Windows [something] for all laptop models, so probably even buying a bare Lenovo without paying the Windows tax is impossible. Interestingly a comparison table (http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/thinkpad/?europe&cc=europe) still had a row labeled "Preloaded Linux operating system option", but with "-" in each column. As if to emphasize that the Linux demon is now banished...

Linux enthusiasts had better take their money elsewhere.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 9:53 UTC (Fri) by cpm (guest, #3554) [Link]

Is there any laptop anywhere that is -feature for feature, component for component- less expensive with linux pre-installed than windows pre-installed?

While I have seen linux laptops be less expensive than windows laptops,
there has always been a shortcut in the hardware somewhere that made
up for that lower price.

Is the microsoft tax a red-herring?

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 10:36 UTC (Fri) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

Is the microsoft tax a red-herring?

No. The problem is not really the cost of the Windows OS (which is likely to be fairly low for OEM versions and reportedly offset by promotion money the vendor gets from pre-installing demo versions of various commercial Windows software), but the principle: You should not be forced to pay Microsoft even indirectly for an OS that you will not use on the hardware. The seeming inevitability of Microsoft getting a cut of any laptop sale is the tax-like aspect.

"price" of laptops

Posted Sep 12, 2008 11:37 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

The price of a laptop has become even more unrelated to actual component costs in the UK now. I don't know if this phenomenon is happening elsewhere.

3G Wireless networking has big sales incentives. So rather than selling you a laptop (thin margins, no ongoing relationship, poor sales prospect) the new idea is to sell you a valuable ongoing 3G Wireless contract (a new customer on such a contract, locked in for 18 months can be worth more than £300 to the telco) and give you the 3G-enabled laptop for free as a sweetener instead of passing on the cash they get for signing you up.

All the major stores seem to be doing this now, so it's probably here to stay (or until the 3G telcos bleed too much cash and go under).

This is a transformation with most of the same implications as when car dealers stopped selling cars and started selling loans. Suddenly the car only needs to be good enough to get you to sign the loan agreement.

"price" of laptops

Posted Sep 12, 2008 14:02 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

The price of a laptop has become even more unrelated to actual component costs in the UK now. I don't know if this phenomenon is happening elsewhere.

Yes it is. Even before 3G, retailers have offered ADSL-based broadband packages with subsidised hardware, just like you see with mobile phones. In Norway, and maybe in other countries, it is now mandatory for retailers to state the full cost of the acquisition: the hardware plus the contract fees for the minimum contract period.

Of course, we hear about how the Windows tax is offset by promotional bundling and that if you want GNU/Linux instead of Windows, the promotional stuff won't be bundled and hence the subsidy isn't there, and so the price may even go up if the subsidy covers more than just the Windows licence. However, none of this is reflected in any quoted price, leading to questions about price transparency and the legality of the bundling practices concerned: you certainly don't know what you are paying for.

In addition, the vendor is actually forcing you not just to license the operating system but also to license all the "promoware" - this seems like a somewhat undesirable practice, since when that Windows desktop appears, I doubt that you get much of a say about which of this stuff you don't want to be running. I note that Best Buy charge $30 or so to remove such "promoware" which I presume is a service fee, but one has to wonder what the manufacturer would charge in order to be "compensated" for the lack of revenue in you refusing to look at such stuff.

What Lenovo is doing here is to force anyone who doesn't want to license Windows to not agree to the EULA (if you even get the choice to review it) and then to seek a refund, to which Lenovo will most likely respond that the customer doesn't have a choice in the matter, or that because of agreements between Lenovo and other vendors, there's no money in the pot to be claimed back. If the "promoware" vendors are subsidising the hardware, it's unethical that you as a third party should have obligations to them: if you wipe their stuff, do they have the right to ask you for some of their money back? What kind of bizarre contractual relationship masquerading as a straightforward purchase have you just entered into?

If the various regulatory authorities had any backbone, they'd have stopped these smoke-and-mirror games a long time ago instead of pandering to the likes of Apple and Real Networks and chasing Microsoft round over various side issues.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 14:16 UTC (Fri) by andrel (subscriber, #5166) [Link]

Laptops with GNU+Linux preinstalled cost more because bloatware kickbacks exceed the cost of a Windows license.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 16:16 UTC (Fri) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

Last I checked, OEMs get the equivalent of a site license to install Windows on whatever they ship, for a price based on their volume. If they don't want this, they can instead pay list price for each install, but that's much more expensive for anyone other than Apple. Of course, there is no actual cost to Microsoft for a Windows installation, especially if the OEM does it and produced a branded CD; Microsoft's costs are all development (and marketing, etc), so they don't have a financial incentive to limit OEM installs at all.

There's a Microsoft tax that you pay on all OEM-produced machines in the same sense that you pay property tax on goods bought in stores; things are priced such that the income on actual purchases covers the fixed overhead the store has to operate in general. Nobody else saves money if you get a computer without Windows on it, so you're unlikely to get a discount because of it. The only way there are actual savings to pass on to individuals is if Microsoft no longer needs to develop Windows versions.

Windows tax

Posted Sep 20, 2008 0:25 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

Last I checked, OEMs get the equivalent of a site license to install Windows on whatever they ship, for a price based on their volume. If they don't want this, they can instead pay list price for each install, but that's much more expensive for anyone other than Apple.

So that whole big lawsuit was for nothing?

IIRC, Microsoft used to offer only the site license thing and a court, after untold millions in legal expenses, decided that was anticompetitive. So now Microsoft customers get a choice, but all choose the same thing that was forced on them before?

Laptops with no OEM MS-Windows installed: Dell

Posted Sep 12, 2008 17:30 UTC (Fri) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

Here (Israel) practically all lower-class Dell laptops are offered with "FreeDOS" as the OS. XP costs less than Vista, generally, and is anyway presented as an addon that costs some additional some 130$.or even more.

More expensive laptops come with Vista Business as the base option.

It is common to all Dells and does not appear on e.g Lenovo or HP. So I guess it is supported by Dell (or at least the local branch).

(This message is written from a Dell Latitude D630 that apparently had FreeDOS installed)

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 12, 2008 18:56 UTC (Fri) by jedbrown (subscriber, #49919) [Link]

I purchased a T61 this spring and it was about $100 less than the exact same spec Windows version.

The Lenovo website was never set up to promote the Linux option. If you just went to configuring a machine, you were stuck in the Windows side (the OS menu option did not let you choose Linux) and the available hardware and upgrade pricing was slightly different. You had to go in via the Linux path from top-level. To compare costs between, you had to configure the spec two options entirely separately. Not user friendly by any stretch.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 14, 2008 9:59 UTC (Sun) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

> Is there any laptop anywhere that is -feature for feature, component for component- less expensive with linux pre-installed than windows pre-installed?

CPC.farnell.com lists Asus Eee PCs with Linux as cheaper than equivalent models with Windows. I've not checked if it's component-for-component the same, but the model names are the same.

Lenovo redefines "commitment" to mean nothing at all

Posted Sep 18, 2008 10:43 UTC (Thu) by Tjebbe (subscriber, #34055) [Link]

you even get more; for the Eee 900 and 901 the linux version has 20GB of disk, while the XP version has 12. I think that is for the same price point, so you choose between windows and 8G of flash disk.

Unfortunately it appears that Asus has decided that they are not going to sell the 901 linux version over here in the Netherlands...

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 12, 2008 8:57 UTC (Fri) by sylware (guest, #35259) [Link]

It's not a proper way to push GNU/Linux on the desktop: some models with only some flavors of GNU/Linux pre-loaded.
The proper way is to have the OS choice (any OS, even evil/closed ones) on near 100% of personal computers sold around the globe.
Without that, we can have technically the best, even free(as in free beer) OS, it won't matter.
BTW, what about a GPL check on Icrosoft code? The problem would be to find people of trust able to perform properly the audit. If we are not carefull, windevil will end up as a pale copy of GNU/Linux, with additional ulgy bloats of course.

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 12, 2008 10:46 UTC (Fri) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]

"""
The proper way is to have the OS choice (any OS, even evil/closed ones) on near 100% of personal computers sold around the globe.
"""

Did you just say that all vendors should offer preloads of Phayoune, Muriqui, Dzongkha, Linguas OS, and SkyOS too, on all their hardware?

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 14, 2008 10:00 UTC (Sun) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

> Did you just say that all vendors should offer preloads of Phayoune, Muriqui, Dzongkha, Linguas OS, and SkyOS too, on all their hardware?

Yeah, sure, why not? Price them accordingly ("other" as the highest price). At least the vendor techs should know the chipsets and whatever.

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 12, 2008 15:12 UTC (Fri) by cde (guest, #46554) [Link]

IMO, the general quality of Thinkpad/Lenovo has declined a bit recently. Guess my next laptop will be another brand entirely.

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 12, 2008 18:39 UTC (Fri) by dilinger (subscriber, #2867) [Link]

I purchased an x61s, and was hugely disappointed with it. It was to replace my x40, but I instead purchased x40 parts off ebay and have gone back to using my x40. I have very little interest in Lenovo's offerings these days.

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 14, 2008 13:27 UTC (Sun) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

The T61 is not that great either. The LCD is not very solidly installed, there is some flex in the chassis, and the keyboard has now been surpassed by Dell's XPS line. Not to mention the lackadaisical noise insulation.

One more reason to avoid Lenovo now, I guess.

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 15, 2008 4:50 UTC (Mon) by khc (subscriber, #45209) [Link]

Hmm out of curiosity, what are you disappointed by? I have one from work and it works great for me, all the hardware that I care about works, wireless, video, sound, suspend and all that. But then again I didn't pay for it, so maybe my expectation is lower than yours.

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 12, 2008 15:14 UTC (Fri) by jhardin (guest, #3297) [Link]

So, where can you buy a new laptop without a hard drive installed?

Lenovo halts online sales of Linux-based PCs (ComputerWorld)

Posted Sep 12, 2008 21:38 UTC (Fri) by virtex (subscriber, #3019) [Link]

That might be a good analogy if every computer manufacturer would only install a single brand of hard drives. But let's say I decided I refuse to buy a computer with a Western Digital hard drive, I still have options. However, if I decide to refuse to buy a computer with Windows, my choices pretty much evaporate, especially in the land of laptops. At least there's still choice in the netbook arena.

I bought a laptop from Lenovo earlier this year specifically because they seemed serious about supporting Linux on the laptop. I'm glad I made the purchase and I'm happy with it, but I'm also sad to see their change of heart.

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