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The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 0:05 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510)
In reply to: The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation) by njs
Parent article: The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Well, "We got breached and we can't figure out how" would be useful information, as it would be a call for you and I to start looking for the problem, along with 1000 of our best friends.

Pretty much anything that keeps us from hearing that information is sub-optimal.


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The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 0:21 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

I guess we may just have different metrics for the usefulness of information. The "we got breached" part is something we already know, and so for that matter is "our systems have unknown security holes" (I mean... duh? the only people who don't know that are living under rocks). All I can see that announcement adding would be the specific information that some particular people do not know which known-or-unknown bug was used in one particular breach, and -- while that information is sort of interesting in a soap-opera way -- I don't see how it would affect my behavior in the slightest. Maybe there's some utility there that I'm missing?

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 0:40 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

Maybe there's some utility there that I'm missing?

This is theoretical, we don't know yet that an undiagnosed exploit was used.

But if there was an undiagnosed exploit that potentially effected my system, I'd want a start on protecting myself against it and figuring it out. Having the existing information would certainly help. It's sort of like not wanting your neighbor to try to put out a fire without calling the fire department.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 7:11 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

>This is theoretical, we don't know yet that an undiagnosed exploit was used.

True. If it turns out that RH discovered a previously unknown but used-in-the-wild exploit and then sat on it for some weeks without telling anyone, then everyone will want to lynch them, absolutely.

But I'm assuming that isn't the basis for your argument, because that would mean you were arguing for pre-lynching them *just in case* they were hiding such information, and I respect you more than that :-). It's still *entirely* possible that they don't know the exploit, or it was a known exploit, or it was a previously unknown exploit that they have quietly reported (any number of security fixes have been released since the break-in was discovered, after all). Right?

>But if there was an undiagnosed exploit that potentially effected my system, I'd want a start on protecting myself against it and figuring it out. Having the existing information would certainly help.

But that was my point -- what sort of existing information do you imagine would help? Or make it concrete: in the Debian compromise, the initial announcement basically just said "somehow they got root, we don't know how". That was the only public information available until the details on the exploit were announced ~2 weeks later. How did you act differently during those two weeks? And if you acted differently, then *why*, given that we all know that there are undiagnosed root exploits in all of our boxes?

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 7:38 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

How did you act differently during those two weeks?

Well, one thing that was different from this Red Hat thing was that I knew, for sure, that the Debian folks would tell me what went wrong as soon as they could :-)

After the two weeks, I changed my kernel, as soon as I found out it was necessary to do that.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 12:54 UTC (Thu) by skvidal (subscriber, #3094) [Link]

From here:
http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/fedora-security-i...

"Something that came up at the board meeting today is that some folks are worried that their systems are not completely patched or current. That fedora infrastructure may have patches applied that we cannot tell people about.

Just to dispell this concern. Every package we (fedora infrastructure) have installed or updated on a system since the incident occurred is public and available."

Everything we have, you have.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 3:10 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

Look where? I doubt we'd all be given access to machines and their logs just like that. I never heard of anyone using an open method of detecting breaches like this. And that doesn't even touch on privacy issues of people visiting RH/Fedora sites.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 3:34 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

I wasn't expecting logs. What I was expecting was information like "the user appears to have executed a privilege escalation under kernel 2.x.x, and this is what else we found that's directly connected with that user...

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 4:06 UTC (Thu) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]

Bruce that is exactly the information authority figures wouldn't want released as it's the information they use during interrogations to get the suspect to reveal details they can't know unless they are one that did it. Not only that, but you previously claimed that you want information on security implications that could effect RedHat/Fedora system installs. Outside what items were directly compromised the details of what the user did are nothing more than the details of the crime. Sure they make a good story but they aren't going to help you know anything about security implications to your installs.

Just admit that you want all the details including the meaty story, not just the facts that directly affect users. My sense in reading your comments is that you want RedHat to reveal all the details of the crime, the pirates of silicon valley type story describing the compromise in detail including a breakdown step by step of what the cracker did and maybe even the commands the cracker used. That's a press story, a crime novel if you will, not anything of value to system admins. As a sys-admin, not a kernel hacker I want to know what was compromised, what I need to do to stay secure and what will happen to update the system. The press release covered that. They laid out what they think happened, they told everyone not to update any package till they could update the signing keys and then they updated the signing keys and issued new updates.

The only thing I can surmise is that you believe they are engaged in a coverup and that more damage was done then they are revealing which would realistically be corporate suicide.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 5:51 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

I want the facts that directly effect users, and was answering how they would be determined if there was a penetration that wasn't fully understood.

At least one user I've heard from got compromised ssh packages that were distributed from a corrupt Fedora archive. He doesn't know if they were actually used to penetrate his system. He has little choice but to wipe every password, every private key, etc. He can't get any help from Fedora, because Fedora is itself being kept in the dark.

This is just not the way an Open Source product should be operated. If Red Hat is going to work like Microsoft, they're no better than Microsoft.

Why the heck did we work on this software for years just to have corporations that screw over their own customers and the Open Source teams that feed them?

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 7:25 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

>At least one user I've heard from got compromised ssh packages that were distributed from a corrupt Fedora archive. He doesn't know if they were actually used to penetrate his system.

Wait, what? The official word from Fedora is that there were no compromised packages whatsoever. (And from RH that there are compromised ssh packages, but that they were not distributed.) If there's information otherwise, then shouldn't he (or you) be contacting Fedora, and possibly also media outlets?

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 7:41 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link]

Wait, what? The official word from Fedora is that there were no compromised packages whatsoever. (And from RH that there are compromised ssh packages, but that they were not distributed.)
I've heard from one person who says his system failed the test script that Red Hat distributed. I don'k know him and can't attest to his reliability. I don't know if it's a false positive.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 7:52 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

Oh, so it was RH? I guess that would be another reason he couldn't get help from Fedora :-). But that's an easy mix-up to make...

If he really did fail the test script, though, then I bet he can get help: presumably the investigators would *love* to figure out how that package got onto his system, since whoever put it there must have contact with the RH attackers... OTOH: random emailer of unknown provenance, making an unverifiable claim that would make news if real but hasn't, and whining about how they can't get help when they would have if they tried? Obviously I don't know him either, but kind of tingles my internet-attention-seeker sense.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 8:02 UTC (Thu) by mspevack (subscriber, #36977) [Link]

I don'k [sic] know him and can't attest to his reliability.

Then why are you spreading FUD? -1 (Troll)

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 12:58 UTC (Thu) by skvidal (subscriber, #3094) [Link]

If you'd like to pass along his name/email, it'd be handy to know where he obtained this package from.

It wasn't from what is on the master mirror, I can assure you of that.

The Fedora-Red Hat Crisis (Datamation)

Posted Sep 11, 2008 22:50 UTC (Thu) by wingo (subscriber, #26929) [Link]

Bruce. That's twice. *Affect.*

Respectfully, Andy.

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