Well, it's a start. I just had to jump through hoops to get 2D working on my VIA Chrome9 HC IGP equipped MB. And yet more hoops to get it going with anything better than the vesa driver. It's hardly a new chipset. But it required the very latest OpenChrome driver from svn, compiled from source, to work.
Surely, VIA has the resources to get with the program faster than they are doing. Especially since their chipsets aren't exactly the advanced 3d monsters that NVidia and AMD make.
VIA did have send a representative to the (Linux Foundation?) Collaboration Conference. And he said a curious thing. IIRC, he said that as a Taiwanese company, its hard for them to participate in open source. Now what's that supposed to mean? They certainly don't have any problems, as a Taiwanese company, getting their goods to market, world wide, for people to buy... and then find out don't work with their OS.
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:08 UTC (Fri) by wblew (subscriber, #39088)
[Link]
One point: is it expected that everybody, worldwide, that wants to participate in open source, be a fluent english speaker?
Based on the lingua franca of the mailing lists, I would assume the answer is: yes
If this is the case, would that not be one barrier?
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:55 UTC (Fri) by bmur (guest, #52954)
[Link]
By virtue of writing C code, don't they need basic english to be a programmer?
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 22:35 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330)
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No, you don't need to know English to write C. You need to know the meaning of a few keywords that happen to be English words, but that's a far cry from being able to communicate in English.
Over the years I've seen a lot of code where the comments, variable names, etc. are chosen from some other language.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 11:38 UTC (Sat) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501)
[Link]
But then again, the variables and comments in the code of the kernel, xorg and such are English. Don't those porgrammers neer to check the source of the larger programs that they write for?
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 15:02 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
Sometimes, yes but people can manage without understanding all of it. When Staroffice was released under a free software license, it used to have lots of comments in German and it probably still has but despite that people have managed to understand the code and contribute improvements. The situation for non English speakers is comparable. Also, for many of them, they do understand English to some extend but they are not comfortable speaking in a public forum which is going to be archived pretty much forever.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 19:19 UTC (Sat) by salimma (subscriber, #34460)
[Link]
Would it not be the same with proprietary software -- the SDKs and documentation will mostly be in English?
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 2:47 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
This is by no means a open source specific issue however proprietary software organizations might be able to buffer it by moving people between sites and there is less of a cultural shock and fear associated with the whole process. The local education system also plays a important role here
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 8:05 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link]
Speaking of Microsoft, most of their books are (well) translated to other languages (Spanish here). Also, all of the online documentation is automatically (crappy) translated. This reduces the entrance barrier for new developers considerably.
Regarding English, the distance from being able to read to being able to express yourself is considerable. I haven't been to Taiwan, but in mainland China the percentage of people that can read English is very small.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 20:25 UTC (Sun) by xtifr (subscriber, #143)
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You need to know more than "a few keywords". Any non-trivial program will draw heavily on libraries (starting with the standard libraries) which have APIs generally written in English. Note that the classic, trivial "Hello World" program which starts the most famous introductory book to C in the world uses only one word that is (arguably) a keyword (#include, which is really part of the preprocessor, not, technically, a core keyword). Although you can substitute whatever you want for the text string "Hello World", to understand even this simplest of C programs, you need to recognize the English words "include", "main" and "print" (the latter in a confusing form with an extra letter on the end). And you still haven't gotten to the keywords.
And, of course, without a knowledge of English, the fact that "stdio" might be short for "standard input/output" will be completely lost on you. (Even with English, this might not be obvious at first.)
Ironically, because the default locale is 8-bit ascii, you'll need to know <em>more</em> English words to write a program that works in another language than you would to write one that works in English. At a minimum, you'll need to learn "locale" and "set". Neither of which, again, are keywords or even parts of keywords. :)
This isn't to say that you <em>can't</em> learn to program in C with only a bare minimum knowledge of English--we've both seen it done. But the bar is still higher than you suggest--"a few keywords" is far from sufficient.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 14:45 UTC (Mon) by proski (subscriber, #104)
[Link]
ASCII is 7-bit. The default locale is usually asked during the installation. In Fedora, it's en_US.UTF-8.
Non-English-speaking programmers
Posted Sep 4, 2008 5:55 UTC (Thu) by ncm (subscriber, #165)
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xtifr claims, essentially, that one cannot program in C well without knowing English. This is manifestly false; a very great deal of good C code is written by people who don't speak any English. They have to work harder, but many people are capable of working hard. They may depend occasionally on an English-speaking colleague, but one such colleague can serve many programmers.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 4, 2008 8:39 UTC (Thu) by ekj (subscriber, #1524)
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Sure. But these are domain-spesific words. Knowing and recognizing them are different from knowing the language in general.
You may need to understand what printf, strstr, mutex, heap, CreateNode, while, string, for and a lot of stuff like that means.
But the fact that these are origined in english is almost completely unimportant, a non-programming english-native would not be able to tell what a "heap" or a "mutex" is in this context any better than a non-programming Indian or Norwegian or whatever.
When he -does- learn programming, he also learns the spesific meaning of the most common words, he learns more when he uses libraries etc. But here's the thing; this spesific meaning is so specialised that knowledge of what the word means in everyday english is almost completely irrelevant.
It's -not- much easier to learn what a "heap" is in programming-context if you're a native english-speaker than it is if you know no english at all.
Try asking your grandmother (assuming she is english native, and does no programming) what a "string" or a "heap" is. You'll get an answer, but not one that would help much in understanding a C-program.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 4, 2008 9:29 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
But when you're writing code you have to *come up* with names as well. In
a lot of languages it's still impossible to come up with names in your
native language (C only recently gained support for Unicode identifiers,
for instance), so you're going to have to come up with names in, probably,
English. And that's harder than learning a bunch of names by rote.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 5, 2008 12:14 UTC (Fri) by ekj (subscriber, #1524)
[Link]
It's still not that hard. Plus, in many MANY languages outside of english, you can easily write in ascii.
German, Norwegian, French, Italian and Spanish all have a few extra letters and/or apostrophes or whatever. Nevertheless it's simple to use norwegian (or german, or italian) names for variables, functions and components.
Even if you -do- decide to use english names, that's STILL not equivalent to needing to know the language. You don't need hearing-comprehension (harder than reading-comprehension for many) you don't need grammar. You don't need pronounciation. You don't need comma-rules, capitalization-rules etc etc etc.
Learning a few nouns and a few verbs isn't more than a small part of learning a language.
Knowing english is helpful. It's in no way required.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:59 UTC (Fri) by mstefani (subscriber, #31644)
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That's a problem but a smaller one.
The big problem is the culture difference. Sending a patch and getting the typical rough response back would make them loose their face in front of their colleagues.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 22:08 UTC (Fri) by wblew (subscriber, #39088)
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Agreed, on the cultural differences. I think that the barriers spoken of are real, and tangible. IMO to pretend that they do not exist, is somewhat naive.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 22:37 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330)
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Which is why VIA was wise to hire Harald Welte to help with the communication and getting the code merged. Other companies would be wise to do the same (hire experienced open source people to help bridge the cultural gap).
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 5:51 UTC (Sat) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640)
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There is a sizable FLOSS community in spanish-speaking countries, and at Debconf mexico I met some developers spanish-speaking developers who didn't speak english at all. So certainly it's possible, if perhaps not very convinient, to be participate without english skills.
As another anecdote, I was planning to buy a Linux-based STB (dbox2), and turned out the community spoke and documented everything only in german. Eventually I managed to decipher enough from the forums that dbox2 was missing a feature I needed, but it was quite enlightening experience.
With the for example recent translation of kernel docs to Chinese, I presume the trend is only going to continue, creating more and more code and documentation that is not available in english (unless someone translates it first).
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 6:47 UTC (Sat) by laf0rge (subscriber, #6469)
[Link]
first of all: all european languages are somewhat similar to each other. especially the latin-derived/influenced one. and they all share one script.
so please don't compare the spanish/english situation to a chinese/english situation.
much more difficult is the culture. European or in general 'western' culture is fundemantally different in so many ways. And you cannot really understand a different language without understanding a bit of the culture, too.
I'm not just referring to actual 'culture of the people' but also corporate and industry culture.
Chinese <> English/Western culture differences
Posted Aug 30, 2008 13:51 UTC (Sat) by Duncan (guest, #6647)
[Link]
I was raised with exposure to other cultures, African, European, USian,
but nothing eastern, so it has always intrigued me.
Consider just one thing by itself, how characters translate into words
and what assumptions one makes about the world based on that from a very
early age, as they learn to read, etc. I can't help but think that were
I to read/write a language where a character was a word and a word was a
character, I'd likely have a very different viewpoint on the world and
how it worked and what made it tick, based on that alone. Not wrong,
just very very different. Certainly, logic is logic, but one's
assumptions and axioms would surely be very different if one were used to
thinking of individual characters as having the meaning of words, and
perhaps extending that to one's assumptions of how the world in general
worked.
So yes, I can certainly see how culture and world-view would
be /entirely/ different, and that it could and would seriously affect
one's ability to participate in the to this point mostly western FLOSS
community across a cultural gap of that degree.
Hiring Harald Welte as a liaison will certainly benefit both Via and the
FLOSS community as each side learns to work better with the other,
without causing or taking unnecessary offense, while learning to see
things from the vantage point of an entirely different world-view.
That said, as a purely practical matter, until they started making this
very serious effort, I certainly didn't feel obligated to buy Via, any
more than I felt obligated to buy MSI when I visited their site
researching mobos, and found everything, from the docs to the BIOS flash
packages, in MS executable, probably self-extracting-executable-zip,
format. (Yes, I /did/ write them an email, telling them exactly why they
were getting crossed off my list in terms of further consideration.) Via
could do its thing and I could do mine, and if they didn't make it easy
to do mine, well, there were other products to buy. Simple as that.
But I'm glad that's changing as it's nice to have choices! =:^)
Duncan
Chinese <> English/Western culture differences
Posted Aug 30, 2008 21:11 UTC (Sat) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link]
Chinese logograms (which I guess is what you're thinking of) don't really quite have a word-symbol equivalence. You could compare them to the prefixes and suffixes (often stolen from Latin or Greek) which are used to coin some new words in English, e.g. take television, it's one English word, but there are two meaningful components, "tele" and "vision". Most Chinese words are made up of more than one logogram*. As in English, sometimes the resulting word assembled in this way takes on a meaning very different from the literal reading of the component parts.
When importing words from other languages to Chinese a phonetic transliteration is often used, where the characters are chosen based on how they sound, rather than what they mean. The beverage "Coca-cola" is represented 可口可乐. Visually this could also be a short phrase, but no literate Chinese person would make that mistake.
[Grr, LWN previews seem to be broken for Unicode input, the above is U+53EF U+53E3 U+53EF U+4E50]
* And the logograms are themselves often made up of several components, which were originally, thousands of years ago, pictures directly representing ideas or objects.
Documentation as (self-extracting) .exe files?
Posted Aug 31, 2008 1:58 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link]
I've come across a few of those, and just out of boredom once I tried unzip(1) on them... and it unpacked the contents fine.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 7:51 UTC (Sun) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331)
[Link]
It's amazing how often I'm able to understand technical discussions in Indo-European languages I don't know using only cognates and technical terms.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 11:40 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
That depends as much as anything on the writing system employed. I have no
hope of understanding anything in Russian or Eastern European languages
where the conventional writing system is Cyrillic, because similar though
Cyrillic is to the Latin alphabet it's not similar enough to be readable.
(Not to me, at least.)
(Of course, if I actually cared about this I suppose I could always learn
Cyrillic, but I'm English so it's traditional that I be monoglottal
imperialist scum.)
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 15:10 UTC (Sun) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501)
[Link]
Test case for your statement: Turkish. Written in a Latin script. Language is completely different from anything European.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 19:17 UTC (Sun) by eru (subscriber, #2753)
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Test case for your statement: Turkish. Written in a Latin script. Language is completely different from anything European.
From anything? Actually Finnish (my native language), Sami, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, and probably some others I forgot are also European languages (i.e. they are natively spoken in Europe), but as different from the Indo-European languages as Turkish is.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 0:51 UTC (Mon) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331)
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That's a good point. I'm not able to understand a word of Greek or Russian without the babelfish's help. But oddly enough, I hardly ever see technical discussions in Greek. And the Russians tend to use English.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 12:24 UTC (Mon) by liljencrantz (subscriber, #28458)
[Link]
Most eastern European/Slavic languages actually use the latin alphabet. (Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanian, et. al)
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 15:02 UTC (Sun) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640)
[Link]
> so please don't compare the spanish/english situation to a chinese/english situation.
That was most certainly not my intention. I was just sharing my thoughts (as answer to the original poster), that it seems possible (but certainly no easy) these days to participate in FLOSS community without knowing English.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 15:44 UTC (Mon) by hmh (subscriber, #3838)
[Link]
Yes, and yes :-(
But there is little we can do about it. Localized development efforts (i.e. those that are not ready to work internationally) in FOSS usually either die quickly, or cannot be reached at all by non-locals.
If you do any sort of FOSS development, you HAVE to be able to communicate in english if you want your project to succeed (or to work with the vast majority of the FOSS communities and projects out there), and that's the beginning and end of it.
For users, things are less strict, but the moment you want to become an advanced user and that starts requiring access to in-depth documentation and other advanced users, chances are you will need to be able to communicate in english for most projects/applications.