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Lossless audio formats

Lossless audio formats

Posted Aug 26, 2008 0:47 UTC (Tue) by Mithrandir (subscriber, #3031)
In reply to: Lossless audio formats by pr1268
Parent article: Interview with Richard Hulse of Radio New Zealand, on the decision to offer Ogg Vorbis (Groklaw)

Any recording is lossy, sure. It's impossible to record the exact sound-wave field of an original audio source. But you start to stretch the bounds of sanity when you go down this route. We need to draw some kind of line in the sand if we're to use the term "lossless". Sure, any recording is not going to be exact. But there are so many other influences in the recording pipeline that may be more important, like the placement of the microphones, the frequency response of the recording electronics, the aliasing caused by digital sampling, the frequency response and placement of the speakers or headphones that you use to listen to the resulting recording etc. etc. etc.

The warmer, more enjoyable tone that people often refer to when listening to vinyl is actually caused by distortion of the original recording, by a non-flat frequency response. The clicks and pops caused by microscopic dust particles can be either enjoyable and soothing or absolutely, intolerably annoying depending on your point of view. Whether the recording is closer to the original is such a subjective argument as to render it almost meaningless for the purposes of debate. I mean on what measure are we comparing them? Distortion of the frequencies normally audible to the human ear? CDs win. Distortion of the frequencies not theoretically recordable with a CD's sampling rate? Records win. Continuity of fidelity over time and with consecutive plays? CDs win. With a tactile, satisfying user experience? Records win. Whatever.

I love this anecdote that my dad told me once; he was a solid state physicist and electronics buff, and he couldn't abide people who talked stuff up, especially needlessly expensive stuff. He went over to an audiophile's house one time, and he was showing my dad his amazing audio set, with its state of the art amazingness etc., enthusing about how exact the sound was, how perfect the rendition of the original, how the thousands of dollars spent was totally worthwhile.

My dad politely pointed out that the road noise coming in from outside caused a bigger dip in signal to noise ratio than did the cheaper electronics in his own set at home.

For all intents and purposes FLAC is lossless. The original signal is retrievable, and is exactly identical to the uncompressed one. Its strength lies in being specifically tailored to compressing audio signals, and as such it typically compresses up to 50%, compared with general purpose compression like ZIP with typical compression of 20%. If you rip straight from CD, you can record a .cue file which allows an exact reproduction of the original CD. Try that with Vinyl.

I guess, if I actually had a point to this comment, it would be something like: sure, no recording is precisely lossless. But CD is so close to it that 99.99% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, especially when listened to on typical audio electronics. Have a look at Nyquist's Theorem. If you want to go buy all your music on DVD, that's fine, the recording industry will love you. I hope you can hear above 22kHz though.

The popularity of MP3 and OGG attest to the fact that they're good enough. The unwashed masses just. don't. care. They've voted with their feet. It's fun to argue about it though, isn't it? ;)


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Lossless audio formats

Posted Aug 26, 2008 1:29 UTC (Tue) by Sutoka (guest, #43890) [Link]

Try that with Vinyl.

The Xiph.Org guys recently announced that was something they planned on changing. A lot of people believe Vinyl gives a better experience (like you said) than CD/FLAC/any digital, so Xiph.Org is planning to announce a new project that'll accurately reproduce that experience but with much better convenience. Apparently the initial code base is going to be based on FLAC, but as it's meant for analog audio, they're planning on naming it the Analog Free Lossless Audio Codec, or AFLAC for short. Apparently they're already planning on using this as their logo.




In case you just heard a a 'whooshing' noise, that was a joke :P

Lossless audio formats

Posted Aug 26, 2008 1:52 UTC (Tue) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link]

Any recording is lossy, sure. It's impossible to record the exact sound-wave field of an original audio source. But you start to stretch the bounds of sanity when you go down this route.

Agreed. And I hope no one thinks I'm going insane for arguing whether CDs are lossless. I don't mean to criticize or dismiss audio CDs, but rather simply point out that even they are not a true lossless audio format. But they're incredibly close!

My dad politely pointed out that the road noise coming in from outside caused a bigger dip in signal to noise ratio than did the cheaper electronics in his own set at home.

Hehe, also agreed. But what a downer of an argument! I've a factory CD player in my little pickup truck, but when I get up to 65 MPH or so, the road/wind noise reduces my S/N ratio to about 20-25 dB (on a quiet road). Kinda defeats the purpose of all that available dynamic range. :-/

I guess, if I actually had a point to this comment, it would be something like: sure, no recording is precisely lossless. But CD is so close to it that 99.99% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, especially when listened to on typical audio electronics. Have a look at Nyquist's Theorem. If you want to go buy all your music on DVD, that's fine, the recording industry will love you. I hope you can hear above 22kHz though.

Yes, I've studied Nyquist's theorem (and read the related parts of Claude Shannon's famous AT&T paper on information entropy). I'm recently enlightened from a computer multimedia studies class in grad school, and thus I'm probably showing off my newfound knowledge more than I'm trying to open a can of worms. :)

Lossless audio formats

Posted Aug 26, 2008 6:39 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

People keep on saying FLAC compresses at about 50%, but that's just not
true. It manages 50% for noisy stuff like a lot of popular music or full
orchestral works. For me, it manages *70%* consistently for, say, piano
sonatas or something like that. Get *that* out of zip. :)

Lossless audio formats

Posted Aug 26, 2008 7:17 UTC (Tue) by Los__D (subscriber, #15263) [Link]

FLAC is a lossless representation of certain digital audio formats.
MP3/Ogg is a lossy representation of certain digital audio formats.

Any recorded audio is a lossy representation of "real" audio (Loss going on through the entire chain; microphone, wires, electronics, sampling, etc.). Hell, any listening is lossy.

In my mind, when talking about anything lossless, it just mean that _this_ particular step does not remove anything, not if it is lossless compared to the original sound of the vocal cords moving.

In that case, there isn't any limit to "how lossy" it is before calling it lossless. Either it is lossless, or it isn't.

Lossless audio formats

Posted Aug 26, 2008 14:28 UTC (Tue) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link]

"In my mind, when talking about anything lossless, it just mean that _this_ particular step does not remove anything, not if it is lossless compared to the original sound of the vocal cords moving."

Bingo!

drew

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