Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too [LWN.net]

Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 4:43 UTC (Wed) by dowdle (subscriber, #659)
Parent article: In defense of Ubuntu

I'm going to open up a can of worms. Get over it.

One thing that annoys me about Ubuntu is that it has brought a lot of Windows users to
Linux... who don't care anything about contributing or being part of a community. Mostly they
want an OS as close to Microsoft Windows as possible... but having less of the nasty
attributes that Windows has. They want everything to work and they don't want to have to
learn anything.

Then they run into a problem and ask for help... and get annoyed that there is stuff they
should learn. They do not want to have to open up a command line although they will consider
it if it is the only way to fix a problem.

Basically Ubuntu has lead to a dumbing down of the Linux community... and a dumbing down of
Linux in response. In some ways that dumbing down is good.

Now having said all of that, I must clarify and say that I'm not claiming that all Ubuntu
users are stupid or that the Ubuntu distro is for stupid people. There are plenty of fine
users using it and it is a fine distribution. I'm sure you can guess though, Ubuntu isn't my
distro of choice... but I am glad that the choice is there... and there are a ton of Linux
distros using Ubuntu as a base... and a lot of development activity going on that has a
potential to be beneficial even if almost none of it is currently finding its way upstream.

But I have run into more Windows users than I care to count who, for whatever reason, decided
that this Ubuntu thing is the greatest thing since sliced bread and they are ready to switch
to it. Oh, they give it the valiant effort. Then then run into an annoyance... and then a
problem... and they want help. Sometimes it is an easy fix... other times it is just a
feature they can't appreciate (file permissions?).

Another big part of it is that they almost always want to run some of their Windows
applications via Wine or any of the Virtualization products.. and although Wine and VMware /
VirtualBox, etc... work well... they aren't perfect and they sometimes require more resources
or are slower... or there is a bug here or there. Their switch-to-Linux goal morphs into an
effort to turn Linux into a platform for running Windows applications.

The vast majority of Windows-to-Ubuntu users I've encountered have eventually given up and
switched back to Windows. Why? Because no Linux distro is just like Windows (thank goodness)
including Ubuntu... and if they could just have a more stable Microsoft Windows that wouldn't
get viruses and/or spyware they wouldn't have tried Ubuntu to begin with. Sure they like the
free (as in beer) about Linux but most of them don't care a bit about the free as in freedom.

Along they way though they are the "gift that keeps on giving" with the questions and
complaints. They make you rack your brain wondering why someone would want Linux to act the
way they think it should act. Those that abandon Linux after trying it often have a bad taste
in their mouth and end up commenting negatively about it to others with no Linux experience.
Their Linux experience was negative so they recommend that others should learn from their
experience and just stick with Windows.

It all boils down to... does the overall Linux community gain much from the mass, somewhat
transient influx of users that Ubuntu has given us? Even those that stick around... are they
a plus for the community or a drag? Do we really care about the numbers? Should we care? Or
should we just be trying to make Linux better?

I don't know the answers to those questions... but I have opinions. :)

I realize that there are a significant amount of hardcore Ubuntu users who are "refugees" from
other Linux distributions... and they are fantastic people who share the same positives and
community goals as the rest of us. Those aren't the people that annoy non-Ubuntu users...
although many of them do find time to bash the distros / communities they migrated from. That
is annoying but it is what we all do for fun, right? :)

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Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 7:00 UTC (Wed) by frazier (guest, #3060) [Link]

> It all boils down to... does the overall Linux community gain much 
> from the mass, somewhat transient influx of users that Ubuntu has 
> given us?  Even those that stick around... are they a plus for the
> community or a drag?  Do we really care about the numbers?  Should
> we care?  Or should we just be trying to make Linux better?

Overall, those who stick around are a plus. Even when the strength density drops, there's
still power in numbers. It really is worth the trade. 

This whole 'netbook' thing is a gainer. From my limited exposure, Linux on the SSD is fine,
but XP doesn't like SSD. That Linpus Linux on the Acer Aspire One was nice I thought. 

The Dell netbook looks interesting. Those are the ideal market for Ubuntu. As you mention,
people who move from windows to Ubuntu are going to look for familiar things. On a new form
factor, they won't be looking for the familiar as much.

Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 7:23 UTC (Wed) by lolando (subscriber, #7139) [Link]

> Now having said all of that, I must clarify and say that I'm not claiming
> that all Ubuntu users are stupid or that the Ubuntu distro is for stupid
> people.

It is not.  It's marketed as "Linux by human beings, for human beings".

I do realise it's probably nothing more than a slogan, i.e. advertisement, but I can't quite
give up the fact that words have meanings even when the words themselves are turned into ads.
As such, I've always been slightly irritated by that slogan, which seems to imply that I, as a
Debian developer and user, am not a human being.  Okay, so I've got super geek powers (whoa, I
master the command-line!), but super-heroes are humans too.

Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 12:05 UTC (Wed) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

People have been complaining that making Linux easier to use is bringing 
dumber newbies for at least a decade.  Ubuntu is only the latest target of 
such accusations.

As someone who has used Linux since 1995 (Slackware, Red Hat, Mandrake, 
Debian, Ubuntu) and has a tiny bit of code in there, I'm much happier 
having Ubuntu (well, Kubuntu) to run than dealing with something 
non-newbie-friendly like (for example) Gentoo or Slackware.

And as someone who ends up being asked for computer help by friends and 
family, I'd much rather help them if they're using Ubuntu than if they're 
using Windows.  Or Gentoo or Slackware.

Making Linux easier to use attracts more users.  This is a good thing, not 
a bad thing, because of network effects.  As users increase, benefits to 
those users increase exponentially.  When we have a measurably large 
market share, we have fewer problems getting support from hardware 
companies, software companies (yes including free software), media 
companies, and governments, all of which have made life difficult for 
Linux users in the past due to our small market share.  When the "dumb" 
users are using Linux, the "smart" users find it easier to do their own 
everyday tasks with it.

Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 16:56 UTC (Wed) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

One thing that annoys me about Ubuntu is that it has brought a lot of Windows users to Linux[....] They want everything to work and they don't want to have to learn anything.

That describes most desktop users. Heck, it describes me. Sure, I enjoy learning new programs or fixing the occasional bug more than the average user, but most of the time I just want to be able to do my web browsing, printing, writing, photo-management, and, OK, kernel hacking, without having to learn a ton of other stuff along the way.

Everybody's got work of their own to do, and even the geekiest of us eventually run out of patience with the rest.

It all boils down to... does the overall Linux community gain much from the mass, somewhat transient influx of users that Ubuntu has given us?

As long as we can still effectively triage bugs, keep the forums manageable, etc., I think it's potentially very useful to have examples that show what can go wrong when a user with experience X attempts task Y. We should find ways to encourage and take advantage of such reports.

Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 20:26 UTC (Wed) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

quote:

One thing that annoys me about Ubuntu is that it has brought a lot of Windows users to
Linux[....] They want everything to work and they don't want to have to learn anything.

for that matter this even describes Linus in many areas. he initially build his entire system
himself, but switched to using commercial distros with the a.out -> elf conversion. he's been
very adamant about not caring much about the details of userspace code and just wanting it to
work so that he can get on with what he's interested in.

Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 20, 2008 21:43 UTC (Wed) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

I'm sure there are some Windows to Ubuntu users like the people you talk about, and every day
some of them give up on Ubuntu.  However, most of the people I see on the Ubuntu forums are
making a real effort to learn Ubuntu as they encounter and fix problems.  

Some of these former Windows users then write up what they've learnt as HOWTOs on the forums -
while I'd prefer a wiki like Gentoo's (the Ubuntu one is not as up to date), the forum HOWTOs
really are an example of open source in action, and incredibly useful.  

Overall, the huge influx of Windows users to Ubuntu is a good thing - it ensures that there's
a real focus on usability.  And being able to run a few programs from Windows is very useful
for all sorts of people, including businesses migrating to Linux - if you use Virtualbox or
VMware you won't have many problems, though WINE is often harder to get working.

RE:Part of it is about Ubuntu Users too

Posted Aug 22, 2008 11:21 UTC (Fri) by Miladinoski (guest, #52970) [Link]

I think everything that you said is right, but it "oh so obvious" and you can't expect for that situation to change.

Imagine a user who has never used Windows who has used Ubuntu for 1 year and it's his first experience with OSs (hey, I said imagine) and then tell introduce him to Windows, ofcourse that he would be confused atleast a bit in the new environment and you can't expect for him not to ask stupid questions like he has never used a computer??
Dumbing down the community is a good thing because that means more newbies are introduced to the OS and that means the OS boosts it's user base which ofcourse is a good thing.

I know of 3 friends to which I recommended Ubuntu and 2 of them switched back to Windows - though they keep Ubuntu on the other partition ('cause in my high-school every student will have a thin client with Edubuntu on it - and they will want to have better experience with it) and the other one keeps Ubuntu and uses it more than Windows. He knows english relatively good and he can ask on IRC or on forums.