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Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld)
ComputerWorld interviews
Novell CEO Jack Messman; the result gives a view into how Novell views
Linux now. "Linux is an immature operating system right now. It
hasn't had somebody like Novell worrying about making it robust, reliable
and scalable for very much time. We think we can bring that to the Linux
kernel." (Thanks to Peter Link and Jay Ashworth).
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Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 15:02 UTC (Wed) by jre (guest, #2807) [Link] As an interested member of the lay (user) community, I am curious as to the typical reaction of IT professionals, many of whom have experience managing both Linux and Novell systems, on hearing Jack Messman describe Novell Netware as "robust, reliable and scalable", unlike Linux. Did they:(1) nod sagely and murmur "Yes, even so..." , or (2) expel coffee violently through their noses?
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 15:42 UTC (Wed) by sphealey (guest, #1028) [Link] As an interested member of the lay (user) community, I am curious as to the typical reaction of IT professionals, many of whom have experience managing both Linux and Novell systemsI would say that breaks down into two different questions. First, is Novell reliable and scalable? Netware 3.11 was very reliable (I see plenty of it in use 5 years after its end-of-support date) but not very scalable. Netware 4.11 and 5.x are very reliable and scalable. NDS (aks eDirectory) is unbelievably scalable and quite reliable if engineered and maintained properly. Are Novell products "more reliable" or "more scalable" than Linux? That is stretching it a bit in my eyes. Novell and Linux have historically served different markets and purposes. Novell serves the large-scale corporate market, where services such as NDS are necessary and useful. Linux (IMHO) typically handles the standalone-server or point application market, and has not fit well into corporate directory services and management tools. There is also a bit of an issue where Linux advocates (at least in the past) have not had much experience with large, multi-site corporate networks, leading to statements concerning the usefulness or quality of NDS and its associated management tools (or Active Directory for that matter). Having worked in a large Netware environment I can tell you that NDS and Novell's model of permissions far surpass anything available for Unix. And let's not even talk about management tools. But at the same time, Novell clearly missed the boat on appliation serving; there are essentially no serious business apps being developed to run natively on Netware anymore. Linux is clearly the leader in that arena. I have long hoped that Novell would port NDS to Linux in a useful fashion, so that a "best of both worlds" solution could develop. I hope that this is the first sign of such a move. However, Novell has historically had the greatest technology in the world combined with the worst marketing and strategy, so I try to control my hope! sPh
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 15:40 UTC (Wed) by mjacom (guest, #10667) [Link] Having migrated a Novell based network to a RH 6.2 based server appliance, I shudder to think what Novell will do. They just might bring the sort of stability to linux that SCO brought to open source and IBM. (Just say "no" to SCO.)
Novell will make 'immature' Linux Posted Apr 16, 2003 15:45 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] Arent Novell and SCO (formerly Caldera) both majorly owned by the Canopy Group (spelling)? I am guessing that all that work IBM is getting sued for didnt help Linux mature after all.Anyway, I wish this new fellow luck. Novell has had a bad history of overpromising.. From old co-workers who worked there.. they said it was a culture of not telling the boss a bad thing so CEO's always got word of a new money making agricultural product when the low end workers were saying it was bull-crap.
Novell will make 'immature' Linux Posted Apr 16, 2003 16:05 UTC (Wed) by erat (guest, #21) [Link] Novell has nothing to do with Canopy Group. Novell is where Ray Noorda got the money to start Canopy Group, if I recall correctly.
Novell will make 'immature' Linux Posted Apr 16, 2003 20:00 UTC (Wed) by ronzone (guest, #10671) [Link] As for the "maturity" issue, I'd mention one of my favorite items frommy collection of "really dumb programming" ideas. It was standard practice in the NetWare code base to save a copy of Working in the depths of NetWare code, I remarked on what a shoddy practice this was - fater all, if the driver upon exiting wasn't in the The essential attitude was one of well, that's the quickest way to ship I.e., essentially upper-management of "tell us no problems, fire, ready, SHIP"!
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (Barf) Posted Apr 16, 2003 16:13 UTC (Wed) by grund (guest, #830) [Link] Seems like everyone who was late realizing the market potential of Linux likes to say it's because Linux is immature, or not enterprise ready, or didn't go with their shoes... But now that ______ (insert name of large company who has made big wind about their Linux adventures) is on the scene, everything will be OK, ______ will save the day and instill robust, reliable, enterprise quality code into those wily hackers. Barf.
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 16:43 UTC (Wed) by dlapine (subscriber, #7358) [Link] Isn't comparing Novell (file and print services) to Linux (General Purpose) like comparing apples and oranges?As for "robust, reliable and scalable", well, we're using Linux and not Novell on our supercomputing clusters., 2 of which are in the top 100 from the top500.org lists. In fact, I don't know of any large scale Novell systems.
Large Novell installations? Posted Apr 16, 2003 17:03 UTC (Wed) by sphealey (guest, #1028) [Link] As for "robust, reliable and scalable", well, we're using Linux and not Novell on our supercomputing clusters., 2 of which are in the top 100 from the top500.org lists.As I indicated earlier, though, that tends to be a "two cultures" issues. People working with supercomputers aren't generally concerned with building 20,000 member, multi-time-zone, multi-language business directories. And people doing such business-oriented work usually don't see CPU utilization above 3%. So the two are often unaware of the others' concerns and challenges. sPh
Large Novell installations? Posted Apr 16, 2003 18:08 UTC (Wed) by dlapine (subscriber, #7358) [Link] I'd have to lump the kernel developers in with the supercomputer culture myself. 20K business directories don't seem to be a favorite project of the CS crowd :)
Large OpenLDAP installations? Posted Apr 18, 2003 7:04 UTC (Fri) by nicku (subscriber, #777) [Link] We use OpenLDAP with a few thousand accounts (posixAccount, sambaAccount), some tens of thousands of entries. And let me tell you, our load average sometimes goes way higher than I would wish. We currently run on a dual P-III. I would welcome a less CPU intensive directory solution (though I prefer free as in freedom software).
Large Novell installations? Posted Apr 18, 2003 20:36 UTC (Fri) by george (guest, #1197) [Link] Surely Google counts as a large scale Linux installation, for anyone'sdefinition of "large"!
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 17:07 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (subscriber, #2510) [Link] Oops. This is a faux pas. I'll talk with them.Bruce
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 20:06 UTC (Wed) by kmagnusson (guest, #10670) [Link] Bruce, thank you for the call today. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. You've been most kind.My name is Kristopher Magnusson; I chair Novell's Open Source Review Board that manages the use of open source software within Novell, and I am responsible for managing Novell's open source community relations, among other things. It's clear to me from my perspective as a Novell insider that Novell management, including Jack Messman, clearly recognizes the tremendous value of Linux, despite anything that's been said elsewhere. I sit in the Linux strategy meetings and Jack and the entire senior management team are genuinely excited about our new Linux direction. We plan to invest an enormous amount of money, time, and resources to enhance Linux. We are fervent believers in the strengths of Linux and the proof is our commitment to deliver NetWare services on Linux. The real message here is what Novell is doing to enhance Linux with additional software that our customers want. What we plan to offer to our customers with NetWare 7.0 is an enhanced Linux with special services--industrial grade NetWare file, print, and directory services for the enterprise, combined with Linux's proven reliability and scalability. We also will continue to offer the traditional NetWare kernel for our customers who wish to upgrade to the "classic" operating system. Bruce, thank you again for your help. I didn't know about this web site and plan to visit it often now that you've brought it to my attention.
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 22:21 UTC (Wed) by cdmiller (subscriber, #2813) [Link] "What we plan to offer to our customers with NetWare 7.0 is an enhanced Linux with special services--industrial grade NetWare file, print, and directory services for the enterprise, combined with Linux's proven reliability and scalability."Kristopher, Is Novell planning to use the Linux kernel for Netware 7.0? Or is this going to be something like the old Netware for UNIX products? - cameron
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 3:26 UTC (Thu) by kmagnusson (guest, #10670) [Link] Novell is indeed planning on using the Linux kernel. This is not going to be a rehash of the old NetWare for Unix product.It's too early to say which kernel it will be . . . the product release is 18-24 months out. My educated guess is that it will be a 2.6.* kernel, though.
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 1:15 UTC (Thu) by purslow (guest, #8716) [Link] "My name is Kristopher Magnusson; I chair Novell's Open Source Review Board that manages the use of open source software within Novell, and I am responsible for managing Novell's open source community relations, among other things. ... I didn't know about this web site" -- ie LWN --and plan to visit it often now that you've brought it to my attention". This character claims to be Novell's top man on open-source software
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 2:02 UTC (Thu) by erat (guest, #21) [Link] Rather than demonize someone for their ignorance, why not educate them instead? That's what Bruce did, and it seems to have worked. You now have Novell's attention. That's a good thing, not something to snicker at.The way some folks "welcome" companies to Linux makes me wonder why companies are bothering with Linux at all. The Novell comments from Brainshare were ill timed and definitely not smart in hindsight. I think we've all been in a similar situation and hoped that folks would be forgiving. (Of course, if you were just joking, disregard this post...)
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 17:06 UTC (Thu) by Xanadu (guest, #1215) [Link] Rather than demonize someone for their ignorance, why not educate them instead?I second this. If indeed this dude saying he is Kristopher is indeed Kristopher (Kris, it's the web, man... things ain't always as they seem...), he's doing something *VERY* cool. He's coming here and posting about his thoughts and answering questions and all that from under a glass celing. Perhaps anything he typed was "previewed" first, I don't know. But he has stopped by and told us all about what's going on. As far as I can tell, he has nothing but good news to report. You, purslow (not erat) are doing nothing than make yourself an example of what is wrong with the "internet". The guy Kris came *HERE* to help out and to inform (as much as he legally can, I assume). My hat is off to him.
OT: Signing posts Posted Apr 18, 2003 7:26 UTC (Fri) by JLCdjinn (guest, #1905) [Link] This does, interestingly enough, raise the issue of being able to authenticate postings. Is there any technology currently available which would allow digital signing of a post in an environment like this? How cool would that be? I can already invision how it would work (and I'm sure it's pretty much like how XML Signatures work, although I haven't had a chance to read the spec yet). Back on topic - I was most astounded to see Kristopher posting here. Astounded and excited, though! I greatly look forward to seeing what the Novell + Linux combo will be able to produce. I agree with Xanadu - hats off to him. Peace, · John
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 3:19 UTC (Thu) by kmagnusson (guest, #10670) [Link] Sorry to have offended you that I haven't heard of all the important open source web sites on the Web. I spend a lot of time at Novell trying to turn the corporation into one that is open source-friendly and that keeps me pretty busy--notice that my efforts are starting to pay off--today there's one more Linux/GPL company in the world. thanks.
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 11:48 UTC (Thu) by libra (guest, #2515) [Link] Novell was one of the most important company I was expecting to see join the GNU/Linux movement. Now I feel confident this will bring to both Novell and GPL defenders big opportunities of development. Of course some may argue that Novell is only one out of many others already supporting GNU/Linux. But I really welcome Novell because I think they have something the GNU/Linux movement really share with them, an interest for quality of products before nearly anything else (even marketing and ease of administration...).
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 16, 2003 22:27 UTC (Wed) by microlhk (guest, #7619) [Link] (Obsolete * Ignorant) squared * making friends = Doomed
Novell will make 'immature' Linux robust and reliable (ComputerWorld) Posted Apr 17, 2003 19:09 UTC (Thu) by penguinista (guest, #308) [Link] I would say to Novell: "Put up or shut up"Do we hear IBM or Oracle whining about whether linux is ready for the enterprise? No, they are actually contributing to the code base and driving partnerships between major players in the industry to generate new business. ItÂ’s interesting to watch old school players like SCO and Novell continue to not get it. A new definition of "mature" will be one who overcomes the FUD, desperation lawsuits, and closed source/closed minds in order to contribute to and prosper from the free/open source movement. "Mature" will be those who are still around 5 years from now.
Thank you Kristopher Posted Apr 18, 2003 0:31 UTC (Fri) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link] Thank you KristopherThank you for facing the hostile crowd in an effort to clarify Novell's plans for Linux. I would suggest that LWN is the most important web site for you to check (weekly -- even daily) to keep you finger on the pulse of the Linux community in a way that is suitable for a business person. It's not as active nor as popular as Slashdot, and therein lies its strength.Perhaps the original representative could have phrased his comments more tactfully (and more precisely) by explaining how Linux hasn't served the needs of Novell's customers (i.e. the ways in which it was "immature" for large scale file, print, and directory services for Novell's target market). Moving forward it would be more useful for the community to know specifically what sorts of features you intend to implement and what sorts of features or support you need from the community (i.e. hooks in the kernel, new system calls etc.) in order to accomplish those. You mention an 18 to 24 month time frame. To the Linux community that is an eternity! How do you differentiate your efforts from those of IBM, SGI, OSDL, Oracle, and even Sun? Basically without some specifics it's hard not to dismiss the orginal story as simple me too press release hawking.
Thank you Kristopher Posted Apr 18, 2003 11:27 UTC (Fri) by jdthood (subscriber, #4157) [Link] > I would suggest that LWN is the most important web site for you to checkAnd for that purpose I would recommend that Novell obtain a corporate subscription to this fine publication.
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